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Old 08-25-2009, 10:41 AM
 
Location: The 12th State
22,974 posts, read 58,423,357 times
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go back to the real topic and use facts not hear say
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:42 AM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,270,233 times
Reputation: 2698
lovesMountains, you make good points as well.

As far as parents being responsible for the actions of their children, while I don't have any data, I'm most sure that for kids like the one who was killed, the signs were there all along and it was apparent that he was headed nowhere fast. However, in a few cases, some otherwise decent kids really do make one horrible decision that couldn't have really been predicted. I'd say those would be the exceptions and not the norm, but it does happen occasionally.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:45 AM
 
Location: CLT native
4,280 posts, read 10,025,755 times
Reputation: 2270
Ak-

I totally agree with you on this.

But after looking at his MySpace page, and the pages of his friends, it is obvious this was probably not just one 'horrible decision'.

This guy and his posse were gansta wannabees.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 66,948,330 times
Reputation: 22369
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
Ani,

You know I love your posts because they make me think.

I haven't read through everyone's comments so I'll speak for my self.

As I said, I feel badly for the victim. But I feel he crossed line when he followed the criminals. He and his wife were safe. He endangered himself and everyone else when he went chsing after them with his gun. Me, you, his neighborbors. He put himself at risk for being killed and leaving his wife a widow. We just can't live that way. I get it... I understand the fear and adrenilin that was going at the moment. That's a natural instinct, but it impairs judgement.

My only point is that his actions were wrong. They were not justifiable. Understandable? Sure. Justified? No. He made a poor choice.

Maybe it would sit better with me if folks were acknowleding that while understandable, it was a poor decision. Vigilante justice isn't ok.

Lastly, I don't think anyone is taking the side of the criminal. On the basic level, absolutely, his mother should feel terribly. She raised an awful young man who appears to have been on his way to becoming a menance to society. She'll have to live with that.
Baybook . . . I was sitting here waiting for your response, LOL! I enjoy reading your posts, too. The reason I come to this forum is twofold - self expression and enlightenment. I enjoy seeing issues from someone else's perspective. (Does this mean I enjoy debating? )

I think McClure's actions are justifiable within the context of what he had endured. In other words, if I were an attorney, I would take his case and feel I could build a solid argument as to why his actions were justifiable.

I see a much broader picture here than what we have discussed.

I see a statement being made to the community, that folks are not going to sit back and continue allowing themselves to be terrorized by marauding thugs. And this is NOT vigilante justice. Mr. McClure was responding to an assault in real time . . . he did not contemplate how to track down these thugs a week later and go after them with a determination to "get justice."

The sociopaths amongst us think they are impervious to consequences b/c they usually get away with their behaviors. We continue to have repeat offenders doing exactly that - repeating the same offenses over and over - and typically, the violence escalates over time.

Take a good look at what is going on in the streets of Chicago right now. This is outrageous. I personally think the only way these thugs are gonna be subdued is when they realize that it isn't just a matter of having to watch for cops. If they knew that citizens themselves are gonna be ready, willing and able to respond to assaults on the spot . . . maybe the mentality would change over time.

I have said it before and I continue to believe this. The problem we have w/ home invasions and assaults in this city is in direct proportion to that point in time when the thugs figured out that the public was no longer arming themselves as we had done in prior years. We all became "easy pickings."

Anti-social behavior that begins with bullying often ends w/ someone being killed, as the antisocial personality does not value life and feels no guilt. But they do understand bigger, meaner and more lethal.

You say that an armed citizen shooting at perps puts the whole community at risk. But the point is . . . the community is ALREADY at risk, b/c the perps are shooting up the streets! Drive-bys, random shootings, assaults at public restaurants, bars, gas stations . . . and home invasions.

You imply that we law-abiding citizens are to "play nice" when responding to being a victim of these thugs. Yet, the thugs are breaking all the rules - and getting away with terrorizing whole neighborhoods.

Somehow, that just doesn't seem reasonable to me.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Moon Over Palmettos
5,975 posts, read 17,541,520 times
Reputation: 5005
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
That pretty much sums it up for me too as far as having a gun in my home. I WILL NOT be a victim if I can help it. Those who want to wait on the police to get there and be terrorized are free to do so - as for me, I lock and load.
Me too, and I would shoot to kill. What does it take to have the Castle Doctrine apply in NC?
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,270,233 times
Reputation: 2698
Quote:
Originally Posted by mullman View Post
Ak-

I totally agree with you on this.

But after looking at his MySpace page, and the pages of his friends, it is obvious this was probably not just one 'horrible decision'.

This guy and his posse were gansta wannabees.
To be honest with you, I'm not even sure I believe that that's really his MySpace page. I know supposedly everyone is on MySpace these days, but it looks almost like a caricature to me. At any rate, it's a moot point. But in any case, I don't think this kid was the exception that I spoke of.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
3,562 posts, read 4,946,338 times
Reputation: 1483
Quote:
Originally Posted by coped View Post
Seriously? What can a 5-2 mom do with a 6-2 15-year-old who says he wants to be a thug? Cast judgment all you want, but you can't hold a parent entirely responsible for a kid doing something like this. It's the kid's fault. Not the parents'.

Well from now on they can call Mr McClure.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Moon Over Palmettos
5,975 posts, read 17,541,520 times
Reputation: 5005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coped View Post
Seriously? What can a 5-2 mom do with a 6-2 15-year-old who says he wants to be a thug? Cast judgment all you want, but you can't hold a parent entirely responsible for a kid doing something like this. It's the kid's fault. Not the parents'.
Start thumping his thick skull when he still is shorter than her 5-2, not wait till he is 6-2!
 
Old 08-25-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Mint Hill, NC
769 posts, read 1,978,825 times
Reputation: 450
IMHO, the fact that the kid wasn't carrying a gun when Mr. McClure shot him isn't such a damning fact. Because the kid DID have a gun when he pistol whipped the McClures. And I would sure have figured that was what the kid had after having just had the experience of him using it on me.
 
Old 08-25-2009, 11:08 AM
 
2,603 posts, read 4,265,189 times
Reputation: 1954
That's fine. But it won't cut it. The pull of the neighborhood and the thug culture will be much greater than that of mom, unfortunately. And, if she's working 2 jobs for minimum wage, how does that work out? Parental responsibility is important, but it's not so cut-and-dried. There have always been bad parents, there will always be bad parents. Blaming the parents is the easy thing to do, but it solves nothing. And arresting parents for their kids' actions will create more problems than it solves.

The police department has been castrated by the stupid War on Drugs. So, instead of foot patrols on every corner, quick response times, we're going after petty crackheads and out-of-town suppliers/dealers. Want to end 90% of gang violence? Legalize drugs, regulate them, sell everything we seize to drive the price down, tax the sh*t out of it. Transfer all drug units to street crimes/neighborhood issues. After a period of blowback from the current suppliers, our neighborhoods will be much safer. We'll have more focus on protecting renters/homeowners from invasions, robberies, stick-ups. The "easy money" days of drug dealing, which is the primary lure of thug culture, will be over (i.e. what happened to the Italian mobs after Prohibition was repealed). There will be much less incentive to become a thug, because the money won't be so easy and the cops will actually be looking to prevent crime.

Pipe dream, I know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bibit612 View Post
Start thumping his thick skull when he still is shorter than her 5-2, not wait till he is 6-2!
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