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Old 09-22-2009, 05:07 PM
 
2,341 posts, read 4,046,617 times
Reputation: 1667

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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
And I am going to say this again. You do not have at your disposal all the evidence and neither do any of the rest of us.

HOWEVER, our jurisprudence system includes the convening of a GRAND JURY. And the Grand Jury DID have all the evidence and testimony at their disposal. And they did not return an indictment. That is all any of us need to know! That is how our court system works!

Just for clarity. I don't believe this case went to the grand jury. If I am wrong, feel free to follow up, but I believe this was a decision made by the DA's ofc alone.

 
Old 09-22-2009, 05:24 PM
 
4,222 posts, read 6,711,313 times
Reputation: 1560
Quote:
Originally Posted by susan42 View Post
I am well aware what decision was made and who made it.
Does that mean I have to agree with it or not dispute it-no it doesn't.
I have not dismissed any "facts", especially ones that seem to be contradictory to other "facts"
I don't think anyone here is in possesion of all the facts or evidence and I have disputed what some people have claimed to be direct evidence.
I am entitled to my opinion that, on the basis of the information I have read, the story doesn't ring true.
A few of the major things for me are the times in the crime summary,the fact that Mr McClure was the only eye witness when there were 3 other kids involved (what was their testimony?) and no gun was found at the scene.
It is not clear to me if Mr McClure remained at the scene of the crime or left.
Similarly-did forensic evidence show that his gun had been fired twice?
I could go on.

I said discourse analysisAnd how the hell am I attempting to turn myself into a victim?

Because I posted twice that someone had sent me reps with nasty comments?

If anything would make someone feel victimised on here it would be the illogical gang mentality.
I already clarified that to CK
Susan, I don't know who or why you were treatened, but I will say that evidence was available that the teen was in fact the perpitrator. His prints were on the tape. As far as the killing, I personally am glad that things ended the way they did. Unless you live in a place that sees home invasions in good neighborhoods regularly, you don't understand these dilimmas. You are from Newcastle you say. You have lots of vandalism and assaults regularly, especially around the Haymarket area on weekend nights. It is a rough town, but it is very different here. We have different crimes here and a poor job is being done by our leadership to put away punks that should never be with normal people. Since you are not a citizen or even live in the U.S., we will take your opinion with a grain of salt and consider your lack of experience living in our generally peaceful environment as we do locally that is unfortunately sometimes invaded by animals like the aforementioned teenage punks.
 
Old 09-22-2009, 05:27 PM
 
4,222 posts, read 6,711,313 times
Reputation: 1560
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
And I am going to say this again. You do not have at your disposal all the evidence and neither do any of the rest of us.

HOWEVER, our jurisprudence system includes the convening of a GRAND JURY. And the Grand Jury DID have all the evidence and testimony at their disposal. And they did not return an indictment. That is all any of us need to know! That is how our court system works!
You took the words right out of my mouth. Bravo!! If guns were readily available in the U.K. as they are here, half of the country would be dead. Instead, there are thousands of stabbings in the U.K. Again, if they had guns, I am sure that Susan would understand and feel differently about what happened.
 
Old 09-22-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,885 posts, read 67,023,037 times
Reputation: 22370
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
Just for clarity. I don't believe this case went to the grand jury. If I am wrong, feel free to follow up, but I believe this was a decision made by the DA's ofc alone.
You may be right. I thought I had read this, but now I am not certain. You don't remember reading anything about it? I will see if I can find out, seeing as how I have certainly made a point of saying the Grand Jury didn't return an indictment, lol.
 
Old 09-22-2009, 08:05 PM
 
Location: El Charlotte
182 posts, read 379,655 times
Reputation: 141
Default No Grand Jury? Even Better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
Just for clarity. I don't believe this case went to the grand jury. If I am wrong, feel free to follow up, but I believe this was a decision made by the DA's ofc alone.

If no Grand Jury was convened, then the DA knew the elements of murder wouldn't stick based on the evidence. Even better, no gray areas for the Grand Jury to figure out. So it must have been very clear cut for the DA to determine through due diligence, in my opinion, there was nothing to pursue.
 
Old 09-22-2009, 08:19 PM
 
2,341 posts, read 4,046,617 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamwow! View Post
If no Grand Jury was convened, then the DA knew the elements of murder wouldn't stick based on the evidence. Even better, no gray areas for the Grand Jury to figure out. So it must have been very clear cut for the DA to determine through due diligence, in my opinion, there was nothing to pursue.
Actually, I don't believe that's how the DA makes a decision to file a case or not. It isn't about being clear cut or not having any grey area. For the DA, is it whether a defense attorney could provide a reasonable doubt. Only has to be reasonable doubt. The DA has a higher burden of proof than the defense attorney.

The DA does have to establish a finding beyond a shadow of a doubt, just looks at is a defense attornry could establish a reasonable doubt.

The end result may be the same, but the argument is quite different.

Last edited by baybook; 09-22-2009 at 08:29 PM..
 
Old 09-22-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: El Charlotte
182 posts, read 379,655 times
Reputation: 141
Default The truth hurts cause it's the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
Actually, I don't believe that's how the DA makes a decision to file a case or not. It isn't about being clear cut or not having any grey area. For the DA, is it whether a defense attorney could provide a reasonable doubt. Only has to be reasonable doubt. The DA has a higher burden of proof than the defense attorney.

The DA does have to establish a finding beyond a shadow of a doubt, just looks at is a defense attornry could establish a reasonable doubt.

The end result may be the same, but the argument is quite different.

You don't "believe" the DA's responsibilities includes filing charges after proper examination and due diligence of facts, evidence and testimony? And you also believe our law is based on the interpretation of a Defense Lawyer determining the merit of a case in providing reasonable doubt? My dear, if DA's relied on Defense Lawyers positions of puffery, we would not have criminal court, ever.

In regards to burden of proof, really, don't talk about the law. It's so painfully obvious you have no clue what you're saying, you offer no facts, rules of procedure and only hyperbole. Which between you and Susan what's her name, have no understanding of the Federal and State laws, nor the court system. Fyi, In the beginning of trial, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, during a point in the presentation of evidence and testimony, the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

You want to know what's hard about justice? A system that is under-funded, minimally under-paid staffed positions and over crowding in every jail in America, for starters. Frankly, it's quite a miracle the system works given the work load of so many people breaking the most basically understood Judeo-Christian principles of right and wrong. If you really want to get educated about the law, go volunteer at the DA or Public Defender's office or another court program that needs significant assistance.
 
Old 09-22-2009, 11:49 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,881 posts, read 27,145,371 times
Reputation: 8943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamwow! View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook
Actually, I don't believe that's how the DA makes a decision to file a case or not. It isn't about being clear cut or not having any grey area. For the DA, is it whether a defense attorney could provide a reasonable doubt. Only has to be reasonable doubt. The DA has a higher burden of proof than the defense attorney.

The DA does have to establish a finding beyond a shadow of a doubt, just looks at is a defense attornry could establish a reasonable doubt.

The end result may be the same, but the argument is quite different.



You don't "believe" the DA's responsibilities includes filing charges after proper examination and due diligence of facts, evidence and testimony? And you also believe our law is based on the interpretation of a Defense Lawyer determining the merit of a case in providing reasonable doubt? My dear, if DA's relied on Defense Lawyers positions of puffery, we would not have criminal court, ever.

In regards to burden of proof, really, don't talk about the law. It's so painfully obvious you have no clue what you're saying, you offer no facts, rules of procedure and only hyperbole. Which between you and Susan what's her name, have no understanding of the Federal and State laws, nor the court system. Fyi, In the beginning of trial, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, during a point in the presentation of evidence and testimony, the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

You want to know what's hard about justice? A system that is under-funded, minimally under-paid staffed positions and over crowding in every jail in America, for starters. Frankly, it's quite a miracle the system works given the work load of so many people breaking the most basically understood Judeo-Christian principles of right and wrong. If you really want to get educated about the law, go volunteer at the DA or Public Defender's office or another court program that needs significant assistance.
Well. . . actually, baybrook wasn't saying anything all that different. . .

If the DA can not find enough information to show that the potential defendant is not innocencent beyond a shadow of a doubt, then why present it.
 
Old 09-23-2009, 04:34 AM
 
4,010 posts, read 8,926,101 times
Reputation: 1585
Quote:
Originally Posted by baybook View Post
.... The DA has a higher burden of proof than the defense attorney.

The DA does have to establish a finding beyond a shadow of a doubt, just looks at is a defense attornry could establish a reasonable doubt.

The end result may be the same, but the argument is quite different.
Maybe I am missing something here but that is by design. i.e. We have a system where one is considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. Of course the arguments will be different.

Last edited by lumbollo; 09-23-2009 at 05:00 AM..
 
Old 09-23-2009, 04:58 AM
 
2,341 posts, read 4,046,617 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamwow! View Post
You don't "believe" the DA's responsibilities includes filing charges after proper examination and due diligence of facts, evidence and testimony? And you also believe our law is based on the interpretation of a Defense Lawyer determining the merit of a case in providing reasonable doubt? My dear, if DA's relied on Defense Lawyers positions of puffery, we would not have criminal court, ever.

In regards to burden of proof, really, don't talk about the law. It's so painfully obvious you have no clue what you're saying, you offer no facts, rules of procedure and only hyperbole. Which between you and Susan what's her name, have no understanding of the Federal and State laws, nor the court system. Fyi, In the beginning of trial, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff, during a point in the presentation of evidence and testimony, the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

You want to know what's hard about justice? A system that is under-funded, minimally under-paid staffed positions and over crowding in every jail in America, for starters. Frankly, it's quite a miracle the system works given the work load of so many people breaking the most basically understood Judeo-Christian principles of right and wrong. If you really want to get educated about the law, go volunteer at the DA or Public Defender's office or another court program that needs significant assistance.
I have not idea what your problem is that you misrepresent what I clearly said.

In a criminal case, the STATE must prove their case beyond what a jury(or judge) might see as reasonable doubt. The burden is NEVER on the defense to prove anything. Their job is to show a judge/jury that the state did not complete it's task.

If you don't think that's how the DA decided not to move forward with this case, you should read his statement released last week about this case. He says exactly what I am saying and he would know since that's his job.
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