Think twice before moving to Chattanooga, TN (Maryville, Orme: environment, construction loan)

[xtranaut]

Originally Posted by luminus

I am a young person - 25. However, my two cents are going to be put in now, so if you don't value the opinion of a college educated, mildly fresh-faced youth, skip this post now. This is mostly a reply to xtra, but also to anyone else who is having trouble working here.

The job market is bad in many areas. Of the country, mind you. Unemployment is fairly high, service positions are appearing far faster than any other sector (besides perhaps healthcare), and I don't care what area of the country you are moving to, this will almost always be true at this time (2007). Don't blame Chattanooga for a problem that is widespread.

Secondly, perceptions about how bad the employment outlook is after you've moved to an area where you have no connections are probably going to be slanted. The job market seems easy when you have a job - you can switch without missing a beat, find out about openings around the country (for your company and others), be headhunted and tracked down by those who hear about your skills - none of this will happen after 6 months of unemployment in a new town. You drop off the earth, essentially, and it's no wonder that things don't get better. Again, don't blame the particular town you are in for the general working of the economy, and in this case, hiring practices. It could happen in Chattanooga, LA, or Atlanta. No need to claim that there is a "good old boy" network - there is a network in place everywhere. Good for some, bad for others - depends whether or not you're a member, regardless of what city/state/company you happen to be located in at any time.

I just have to ask, for the rest of the people on this board who haven't and are no doubt wondering - what kind of person decides to move to a town without a means of employment? I realize that you may have a savings account, and a large one, but the financial drain is so considerable I don't see it ever being an intelligent option. Imagine a business that relocates to a new area because it contains possible customers, without doing much research as to the actual preferences of those customers. It would be a mistake, obviously, and could probably be considered small-scale financial suicide. Even if you have, as I imagine most people who are moving to a small-ish scenic town without employment, made a hefty profit on the sale of what was probably an overvalued house, if you don't intend to retire, you are making a mistake.

Find job, move. In that order. Preferably add "find house" somewhere between those two, also.

For the record, my wife got a job here at Memorial Hospital after working at Emory. I have had a single interview in six months. There simply aren't that many jobs in Chattanooga, to be sure, because it's not very large. Ever heard of Dayton, Ohio? Yeah, barely? Same size as Chattanooga. This is, quite simply, a terrible place to move to without being employed beforehand.

As far as houses and cost of living goes, having been in Atlanta and Columbus (Ohio), Chattanooga is absolutely phenomenal. Houses are overpriced in some areas, as they are all over the country. Chattanooga was not unaffected by the absurd skyrocketing of house prices, and it will feel the effects of the market bust soon enough. There is currently two years worth of housing inventory sitting on the market, so if the price seems high, bid low. There's a lot to choose from.

And I just have to say - if your argument about moving to a town is based on the half-assed assumption that there must not be a slab home available just because you haven't found it yet, please don't post that argument on the internet and make a fool of yourself. If you can afford a marble floor, you can probably afford to build, and with home prices deflating and new home construction stagnating, you probably should anyway. Chattanooga is a railroad-filled town, but please, when the crazy train comes through again, nobody get off here. We're obviously at capacity.

I had almost given up beating a dead horse until I received notifcation of your response. I have actually said just about everything I can say and seems to be the perception of many that I am just whining and mostly because of my own stupidity. After this post, I will leave it to others who come after and read the caution of my experiences.

I have no problem admitting that I didn't do the kind of homework about jobs that I should have but I did know people and had family here - unfortunately, not the kind of people who could put in a word for a good job and make something happen.

Even they told me, when I arrived, that I should have "prepared" for what I would find. MY own "sweet southern family and friends" were the first to be brutally honest and tell me that Chattanooga has the same mentality it did thirty years ago, only now cloaked in a touristy facade.

I do realize that the employment situation is much worse everywhere than our white house will ever admit. I knew Chattanooga. I was born here and grew up here and I did investigate to the extent to know that the job market was lean and people who have had their jobs forever, hang onto them. I guess I thought that one or the other of us (my wife and I) would have no problem finding at least one household income, with our backgrounds.

There are several distinctions about Chattanooga with regard to employment and I have made them before, based on instinct, being a native who spent the first 18 years of his life here, and then confirming what I knew and the instinct by what other Chattanoogans told me.

There is no myth about the good old boy network. It is written about famously in many books about the area and the south, in general. The New Money, Old South book gives it a deserving spotlight and contemporary perspective as well.

While it may be a popular trend for businesses all over the country, never to respond to you or to hire from within, this has been a commom practice in Chattanooga for a long time. This is regadless of the superior education or qualifications of the outsider applying for the same job.

Both of us have been in the hands of headhunters for over a year. My wife even signed up at the popular temp agencies, was told they would put her on the list for calls for work, and has never received one phone call. Sorry, but this mystifies me when a person who is experienced at running major areas of operations and is willing to work for minimum wage, can't get a call.

I am very happy that others are having the luck in locating jobs that we are not and that your wife found employment at Memorial. She must be a nurse. Those jobs are plentiful everywhere and much needed.

You said - I realize that you may have a savings account, and a large one, but the financial drain is so considerable I don't see it ever being an intelligent option. Imagine a business that relocates to a new area because it contains possible customers, without doing much research as to the actual preferences of those customers. It would be a mistake, obviously, and could probably be considered small-scale financial suicide. Even if you have, as I imagine most people who are moving to a small-ish scenic town without employment, made a hefty profit on the sale of what was probably an overvalued house, if you don't intend to retire, you are making a mistake.

I also stated in earlier postings that Chattanooga's growth is based on tourism and retirement therefore it will never offer the quantity or quality of jobs of a city that invites clean industry or light maufacturing.

If you are an old friend, like Alstom (formerly Combustion) and you want to expand,go right ahead. If you are Toyota, Chattanooga will shoo you off.

Obviously, you can't presume to know everything there is to know about my situation, or about Chattanooga's living political history, so it is ridiculous to make the kind of assumptions you make. I have given a fair, unexaggerated picture of my experiences.

I am not wealthy but, yes, my savings have saved me for the time being...but if this siutation continues, I will not be able to retire. It isn't necessary to rub in the fact that I didn't do adequate research. I have admitted this several times -- and I have a collection of years in business experience that exceed the total years of your entire life, so I don't need to be told about how to research business feasibility from a fresh college grad. (although I do appreciate your confidence)

This administration's trumped up Real Estate boom to boost a decaying economy,was an opportunity for many of us who saw it as what it was, to exit the bubble with (outrageous) profit. You make it sound criminal. I could have just as easily been the victim but I recognized that one for what it was, and sold for no other reason but to sell and collect the profit. But believe me, I'd rather have a good job than the profit I received on my home right now.

As for Chattanooga, compared to what has happened elsewhere - it feels like a safety zone but it will get it's part of the shockwave too and this will last for three years or more,along with climibing prices on everything else, an adjusting stock market, inflationary symptoms, declining job market, and the attempt by the next President to clean up the horrific mess of the last. No place is immune from that.

Now that we have established how smart you are and how dumb I am, I will call to your attention that, in the fever of your post, you confused your dummies. :>)

I am not the one who complained about crawl spacesi nstead of slabs..

Good luck to you on your job search and Have a Merry Christmas.

[LauraC]

How do smart people make poor location choices?

[galena]

Originally Posted by LauraC

How do smart people make poor location choices?

It is easy for you and I to choose a good location. We are retired. Either you implied or I just inferred that you were criticizing Xtranaut for not making a better location choice. Retirees--who are moving to TN--don't need to be concerned about the job market. We need to only be concerned about what we want in our retirement home /area: cost, activities, shopping, medical centers, etc.
I returned to my home town after I graduated with my master's degree, but I was young, and there was a need for teachers / school librarians. There was--and probably still is--a "good ol' boy" network in the Dade County Public Schools. My sister managed to get a job because I asked my former principal to interview her. We both know that it sometimes is necessary to "know someone" to get a job.
I would assume one of the reasons they are having trouble getting jobs in Chatanooga is that they look at him/her and think, "Chatanooga wasn't good enough for them before (when they left to work elsewhere), so why should we help them now?"
That is just an assumption on my part, but I can certainly hear my southern relatives saying that. Of course, my relatives are mostly small-minded, judgemental, vindictive people.
I find that my sympathies go to this couple who just wanted to return home.

[nALgirl]

Xtranaut,
What happened in Reno? I read that you and your wife both had accepted a 6 figure job with a two year contract and moved in January. Now you are back in Chattanooga still without jobs. Can you and your wife not find a job in any state with all your credentials? What about returning to Houston and MD Anderson? Maybe 2008 will be a better year for you.

[Debbie S]

Thanks, xtranaut and your wife - covered a lot of bases. I married a man in Morristown, Tn, east of Knoxville, and have posted under a forum about disappointment moving to Morristown which had tons of responses. I was thinking of Chattanooga, but can see it will still not fill the bill for a place where arts, intellectual discourse, interest in other places and people, etc. would be easy to find. Loved your comment about Nashville being a more populated version of "a place I never liked".

Tennessee looks beautiful, but brains, curiosity, intellect - these are few and far between, leaving the prevailing attitude of "don't be bringin' any of yer fancy, educamated ideas here, cuz we don't want none!" Funny on a sit-com, but not in real life if you like to feed your brain and have intelligent discussions.

I've been in this town for about 10 years, but have some firm plans to exit for at least half the year to feed my soul and mind and preserve my sanity. Will start with working with my sister in Toronto, a huge, cosmopolitan, very diverse city. I will work with her for several months, and my husband is working on his situation, so we will see what we do from there.

Anyway, good luck! If you find an artsy, cosmopolitan place with bike trails and nice weather (that's most of my list), let us know!

[gsn77]

Originally Posted by xtranaut

My wife is not a doctor or a chiropractor. We don't have the money to open a restaurant. We are middle class people who did well in each, our career fields outside this city in major markets.

If you have to niche, then we rank from mid to upper administrative.

All we bring is smarts and a willingness to make the community a better place.

We moved from Florida so we did not come here to sell hot dogs to tourists.

I am sorry that this may sound harsh, but as someone who routinely makes hiring decisions, I would question the judgment of anyone who up and moves to a new city without a job lined up, unless they are happy not having a job. There are valid reasons: spouse's job, family health or care needs, or maybe just having an insane love for the town, or they are independently wealthy and don't have to have a job. Even so, though, the recruit would be working uphill to show me that he or she is not prone to rash and foolish decisions.

Second, the fact that neither of you have ANY job for a whole year would be a second strike against you if I was interviewing you. I'm glad your too good to "sell hotdogs to tourists," but I have no use for an employee, coworker, or superior who is too good to dirty their hands with certain jobs or tasks. Nobody said that you have sell hotdogs for the rest of your life. But I would be much more likely overlook a person's unwise geographic move if I knew that they hardworking, at least. A recruit who is neither? Forget it.

Third, everyone everywhere can tell you, where ever you go, it's not what you know, but who. That truth does not mean that hiring decisions are poor ones or that the recruit is unqualified. But as even you will agree, personality, "fit," and relations with coworkers are just as necessary as education, sklls, and experience. There is less risk involved with hiring a "known quanitity" (someone from within the company) than someone who you have only talked with once for fifteen minutes in a contrived environment.

Fourth, the "who you know" principle does not mean that you have to be related to or best friends with the president of the company in order to get a job. In fact, in most businesses I have worked, the people making the hiring decision have little or no knowledge of the recruit's relationships with others in the company. Relationships may get you in the door--they will NOT get a job.

Fifth, the main benefit of "who you know" is not about getting you in the door--its in finding out there is an opening in the first place! Very few people I know ever got a job merely by perusing the classifieds. More often, a friend, a former coworker, someone from church, or other social networks says, "Hey, I heard you are looking for a job. You know, Acme Co. has opening..." More often, it's that you get connected with a company that hasn't yet even decided for sure whether it wants to hire someone. Anyway, maybe you have gotten involved with community groups, charitable organizations, joined a church, and tried to build a social network. However, I find it hard to believe you could be so bitter and down on Chattanooga if you had friends, acquaintances, and had invested in the community and local charities.

Sixth, let's get down to reality here: Are you telling me that if you invested years of hard work, sacrifice, and loyalty to a company, you would not expect some loyalty in return? I don't believe that for a minute. If your company denied you a job for which you were qualified and it was given to someon else from outside company, you would be telling us how dumb your company is that it doesn't appreciate you and that even though you've worked there for x years, it still sees you as an outsider.

Seventh, I just don't believe that all the dozens or hundreds of jobs you and your wife have not landed went to unqualified people. No company interested in making a profit is going to hire someone who they don't believe is capable of doing the job. More factually--if none of these companies hired either you or your wife, how do you know who they did hire? Even if you do know who they hired, how can you claim to know whether they are qualified or not? I know I've never passed my resume around to other candidates when I've gone to interview!

Neither I nor anyone I know has any aversion to hiring someone from out of town. In fact, most EVERY business owner I know WANTS more people to come to Chattanooga. (You don't really dispute that, do you?) We love Chattanooga and like people who come here because they do, too. I wish you the best and hope you find the job you want in a location you like. Good luck!

[SmokyMtnGal]

Originally Posted by Debbie S

Thanks, xtranaut and your wife - covered a lot of bases. I married a man in Morristown, Tn, east of Knoxville, and have posted under a forum about disappointment moving to Morristown which had tons of responses. I was thinking of Chattanooga, but can see it will still not fill the bill for a place where arts, intellectual discourse, interest in other places and people, etc. would be easy to find. Loved your comment about Nashville being a more populated version of "a place I never liked".

Tennessee looks beautiful, but brains, curiosity, intellect - these are few and far between, leaving the prevailing attitude of "don't be bringin' any of yer fancy, educamated ideas here, cuz we don't want none!" Funny on a sit-com, but not in real life if you like to feed your brain and have intelligent discussions.

I've been in this town for about 10 years, but have some firm plans to exit for at least half the year to feed my soul and mind and preserve my sanity. Will start with working with my sister in Toronto, a huge, cosmopolitan, very diverse city. I will work with her for several months, and my husband is working on his situation, so we will see what we do from there.

Anyway, good luck! If you find an artsy, cosmopolitan place with bike trails and nice weather (that's most of my list), let us know!

I honestly cannot think of anyplace in Tennessee that would suit you. Toronto sounds like a perfect fit for your criteria. I would never stay anywhere I wasn't happy for 10 years. Good luck finding your happy place. I hope that your husband is happy where he is transplanted since you weren't.
Good Luck!

[SmokyMtnGal]

gsn77 - excellent post, I gave you some rep!

[JMT]

gsn77, that is seriously one of the best posts I've read in this forum in a long, long time.

[luminus]

Briefly, xtra, I am sorry for your situation. It is awful. I am not an expert, in anything, and don't want to assert that I am. I know Chattanooga has an employment network - I stated as much in my post, and also added that other cities, and areas, have similar networks (with smaller moustaches, I'd imagine, but networks nonetheless). My wife only got her job in Chattanooga based on a job she heard about from a person who serviced multiple hospitals, including the one she worked for. (As was stated earlier - "the main benefit of "who you know" is not about getting you in the door--its in finding out there is an opening in the first place! ") We wouldn't be here otherwise.

I simply don't see anything in your post that disqualifies anything I said. You made a mistake, I was commenting on the fact that you made a mistake. This thread is entitled "Think twice about moving to chattanooga." I simply want others to understand that you should think twice about moving to chattanooga if you're doing it without a job offer or similar prospect. Just like you should think twice about moving to any city/area for similar reasons.

In regards to my comment to the OP regarding the slab floor, I realized that wasn't you and didn't clarify properly. You aren't the crazy person that the OP is. You're in a bad situation, and understandably upset, but not anywhere near insane. If I was in any way able to help you I would.

I specifically stated my age to see if anyone would take the bait and tell me I was simply too young to understand things. Glad to see that ad hominem arguments work out for everyone.

I noticed that most of what you responded to in my post was a poor misunderstanding of what I actually stated. For instance, "As for Chattanooga, compared to what has happened elsewhere - it feels like a safety zone but it will get it's part of the shockwave too and this will last for three years or more,along with climibing prices on everything else, an adjusting stock market, inflationary symptoms, declining job market, and the attempt by the next President to clean up the horrific mess of the last. No place is immune from that."

That's you. Now me: "Chattanooga was not unaffected by the absurd skyrocketing of house prices, and it will feel the effects of the market bust soon enough."

etc etc.
I don't "presume to know everything there is to know about [your] situation, or about Chattanooga's living political history", and most of the things I said weren't assumptions. Please re-read my post to see what I was not and what I was saying. I think you will see that I am generally correct, and that we agree. If nothing else we can agree to be annoyed by the current president and his ridiculous handling of basically everything that has happened over the last 8 years. Also, my wife is not a nurse. But that is generally what most people think, because she's a woman who works at a hospital, so don't feel bad for the mistake.