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As cited above, they didn't have very good breathing heads. Even the Pontiac 428 Super Duty heads were anemic compared to a big block Chevy 427, Ford 427 and 428, or 426 Chrysler wedge.
There was never a super duty 428, the 428's used the same heads as the 400's and all flowed well minus the small valve/lower compression versions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennesseestorm
All were good imo. The Pontiacs 428 is a sought after engine among old Pontiac fans. Back in the 1990s, my cousin in eastern Virginia had a 1969 Pontiac Catalina Safari station wagon with the 428 engine option. Someone once offered him $1500 just for the engine!
They are fairly rare and will pull premium prices. Even today 1,500-2,000 for a running 428 isn't unheard of.
The one thing these engines all had in common along with the 430 CI Lincoln/ Thunderbird engines was that they made pretty good torque at low rpms which was great for moving big heavy cars. What they probably all lacked were real good breathing cylinder heads which we all know is the biggest factor in making horsepower in performance engines.
Remember in the 50's the popularity of Olds, Cadillac engines and nail head Buicks in Hot Rods was soon surpassed with the introduction of the SB Chevy which like it or not is the most popular hot rod engine with the sb Ford running a close second.
Another thing that made those engines disappear was the decision of GM to go to a corporate Big Block engine and the BB Chevy was certainly a better choice than the others.
I don't think those engines were bad engines just that they were surpassed by a better engine.
I have no facts and this is just my opinion and best guess so don't slam me because I have a different opinion than you do.
Um, NO! the corporate decision to use the bbc was never. The engines all grew in size to appox. 455 c.i.d in 1970. As for the 428" (actual 426") Pontiac, it was a etter engine than the 455's because it didn't get as over choked on the stock heads as the larger 455. Now as to what I think about the 425 and 430 engines, they were good engines too. It was just gm front office " 7 liter" max c.i.d. mandates that had these engine for just 3 years. That "mandated " cid limit was raised to 7.5 liters as the office clowns put it because of the 1970 models across the divisions gaining more weight. Then the stupidity of low compression max of 8.1 to 1 except for chevy's 9 to 1 limit in some engines (aka corvette) by gm really hurt the rep for awhile of the larger 455's and even the 454 starting in 1971.
The best street car I ever owned and that made me money every night i took it out to play was a 428 Pontiac in a 69 Custom S. bbc's, bbf's, mopars, it'd eat every one of them and did. If they didn't have a big solid roller cam and nos, or a blower, that 428 beat them. And yes, I still have the 428.
All were big strong engines with plenty of torque and LOVED TO SUCK UP 100 octane leaded gas.By 1970 the makers quickly switched to the low compression non leaded gas engines which helped doom them. There were other engines being made that could give power and not be so big and heavy also.A friend had a 65 Olds Jet star 1 with the 425 and that car could keep up with many smaller muscle cars or out run them.
Does anybody remember Dyno Don Nicholson and Arnie Beshwick (sp) doing their country wide tour with two of the baddest cars to come out or Detroit.
Dyno Don had a 409 Chevy and Beshwick had a 390 or maybe it was a 421 Pontiac.
These guys were the Pro Stock stars of their day and both cars were factory supported.
I went to see these guys face off at the Manville, NJ airport/drag strip back in 1962. What a thrill it was to see these Pros go at it in a strip close to my hometown.
I remember the first run and Dyno Don running a 13.2 in the quarter and the crowd went wild, nobody in my area had ever seen a Super Stock driven by a Pro go so quick. They ran a few more times with the same results.
That's what Big Block cars did back in the sixties, not very impressive by today's standard is it?
When today's high winding small blocks can run 11-12 sec. right out of the factory so there is no need for those torque monster boat anchors any longer.
Great torque "engines" (but car guys typically say "motor" so no harm no fowl. Yes I know the difference.) but that was about all they where good for. Heads flowed poorly so they where out of power by 5K or below.
Parts where so so at best. The 454 BBC and 460 BBF where much better motors with much better parts.
I'll agree there where faster cars out there no question about it but valve size has little to do with head flow. The Stage 1 heads where only slightly massaged production 455 heads. They basiclayy cleaned up the ports and put the larger valves in. Unfortunalty they didn't do anything to the runners and the heads flowed poorly but you have to keep in mind that the motor was built for torque not HP. Other major problems with the 455 was major oiling issues, Weak webbing in the blocks and the nodular iron cranks. Sure you could build a nice 500HP motor if you really wanted to spend the bucks but try for much more than that and you would be picking the crank and rods off the ground literally.
I've a fan of the old stage 1 cars but when it comes to over all parts reliability the 454 BBC is really the way to go. Even today people are making 800+ HP using stock blocks, rods and cranks with few failures but yes it is heavy and somewhat awkward to package into a car.
Since the BB Chevy has become the dominant engine (OK Motor for gearheads)in Drag racing and Modified Stock car racing I would hardly call them boat anchors.
I can understand the attachment some can have for the "motors " of the past and for any cars they might have or still own but those engines the OP questioned have outlived their once dominance and popularity.
Just like the T shirt says, "the older I get the faster I was" the same holds true for the memories of the engines (motors) from the past.
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bbc's, bbf's, mopars, it'd eat every one of them and did. If they didn't have a big solid roller cam and nos, or a blower, that 428 beat them. And yes, I still have the 428.
