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Old 10-02-2012, 05:53 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,974,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ View Post
I agree the XTS doesn't have any direct competition as it's marketed as a replacement for the DTS more than a true competitor to the Lexus LS...but what features do you expect on a $50K vehicle that the XTS doesn't offer? I mean it really has more/better features than the 5 Series or Mercedes E-Class for the price.

I digress, I think with the upcoming CTS and the new ATS, Cadillac IS competing directly with BMW/Benz/Audi. The only vehicle Cadillac truly lacks is an S-Class competitor. But the new CTS will challenge the 5 Series and E-Class just like the ATS is out-performing the 3-Series currently.
Don't get me wrong, I think the ATS and CTS are solid cars and I'm a big fan of the CTS-V. Unfortunately unless they are selling for a good bit less than competing vehicles I can't see myself choosing them over the competition. I think they may make for good buys on the used market.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,913,615 times
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People lamented for decades that Cadillac couldn't or wouldn't compete against its European luxury contemporaries. And now when they finally field a legitimate contender, people are complaining that it costs as much as its European counterparts. Uhm... like, duh? Either you can compete on the cheap and/or aim for a lower rung on luxury-car ladder with the kind of results we mostly still keep seeing from American luxury brands, or you can pay to play. Top-notch dynamics, build quality, materials, etc., cost money. If you don't want to pay you won't get those things.

If you just want a convincing veneer of luxury, there's still brands like Acura or Lincoln more than willing to accommodate you. Cadillac is trying to break away from the quasi-luxury status that it's been stuck in for roughly 40 years and start delivering the real thing again, and I hope they sell the hell outta these things.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:58 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,974,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
People lamented for decades that Cadillac couldn't or wouldn't compete against its European luxury contemporaries. And now when they finally field a legitimate contender, people are complaining that it costs as much as its European counterparts BMW. Uhm... like, duh? Either you can compete on the cheap or aim for a lower rung on luxury-car ladder with the kind of results we mostly still keep seeing from American luxury brands, or you can pay to play. Top-notch dynamics, build quality, materials, etc., cost money. If you don't want to pay you won't get those things.

If you just want a convincing veneer of luxury, there's still brands like Acura or Lincoln more than willing to accommodate you. Cadillac is trying to break away from the quasi-luxury status that it's been stuck in for roughly 40 years and start delivering the real thing again, and I hope they sell the hell outta these things.
BMW can charge a premium because they are BMW. BMW's have been desirable for decades and have a client base that will eat up new products without issue. Cadillac does not have this advantage.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,913,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iTsLiKeAnEgG View Post
BMW can charge a premium because they are BMW. BMW's have been desirable for decades and have a client base that will eat up new products without issue. Cadillac does not have this advantage.
So your only objection is badge snobbery?

That's pretty rich from a Hyundai owner/defender.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:25 PM
 
1,963 posts, read 5,606,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
People lamented for decades that Cadillac couldn't or wouldn't compete against its European luxury contemporaries. And now when they finally field a legitimate contender, people are complaining that it costs as much as its European counterparts. Uhm... like, duh? Either you can compete on the cheap and/or aim for a lower rung on luxury-car ladder with the kind of results we mostly still keep seeing from American luxury brands, or you can pay to play. Top-notch dynamics, build quality, materials, etc., cost money. If you don't want to pay you won't get those things.

If you just want a convincing veneer of luxury, there's still brands like Acura or Lincoln more than willing to accommodate you. Cadillac is trying to break away from the quasi-luxury status that it's been stuck in for roughly 40 years and start delivering the real thing again, and I hope they sell the hell outta these things.
Infiniti comes close in performance & handling with its G37 (vis a vis the 328/335) and yet they top out at around $46k. Remember this not even an ATS-V... just the regular 3.6L with Premium. One of the things BMW has been criticized for in its latest iteration of the 3-series is the bump in price, especially the way they force you to buy cosmetic "lines" and on top of that option packages. Before you could pick up a 3-series manual with sport pkg for around $40k, now it's more like $45k. In this recessionary climate, automakers need to value their future customers and not try squeeze every last cent out of them. Otherwise we'll go elsewhere.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:35 PM
 
77 posts, read 153,816 times
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$50k plus for a compact luxury sport sedan of any brand is the 'jump the shark' moment. Smart money won't go there. Not saying they won't sell, plenty of people will desperately chase perceived status. But enthusiasts and influencers who aren't hung up on a badge will begin to look elsewhere. IMHO


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Old 10-02-2012, 06:39 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,974,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
So your only objection is badge snobbery?

That's pretty rich from a Hyundai owner/defender.
Unfortunately, yes. Many people, particularly those shopping in the luxury car segment will view competing products in this manner. The Cadillac brand does not have the strength of the BMW brand. I personally do not buy vehicles in this manner and evaluate individual vehicle strengths. I don't have brand loyalty and will purchase whatever gives me the most bang for my buck. I currently own a 2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe and a 2007 BMW 530i.

An inferior brand needs to offer value. I could see myself buying an ATS over the 3 series if pricing was similar yet the 3 series was a significantly worse vehicle but that is not the case. Cadillac is offering a similar package for similar money and is offering zero motivation for buyers of other luxury makes to make the switch. The ATS may be an attractive option for buyers who are tired of what other makes have been offering or if someone feels that its styling (a subjective quality) is better than the competition.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,913,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokingGun View Post
Infiniti comes close in performance & handling with its G37 (vis a vis the 328/335) and yet they top out at around $46k. Remember this not even an ATS-V... just the regular 3.6L with Premium. One of the things BMW has been criticized for in its latest iteration of the 3-series is the bump in price, especially the way they force you to buy cosmetic "lines" and on top of that option packages. Before you could pick up a 3-series manual with sport pkg for around $40k, now it's more like $45k. In this recessionary climate, automakers need to value their future customers and not try squeeze every last cent out of them. Otherwise we'll go elsewhere.
The G35/7 doesn't match the combination of dynamic balance of handling, compliance, and overall refinement/NVH of the 3-series. It's a perfectly serviceable alternative -- probably the best alternative in fact -- for those who are willing to settle for 90% of what the 3-series delivers on all these fronts, but it's priced accordingly.

With the ATS, Cadillac wasn't aiming for "serviceable alternative." The early reports coming in suggests the ATS does match the 3-series as an overall dynamic driving package, and by some accounts even bests it. Plus the G is getting long in the tooth and will need an overhaul soon. What are the chances it will be able to meet new emissions and fuel economy targets and still be a serious top-tier C-segment competitor while still holding the line on price? Recessionary climate be damned, it costs money to achieve what the bureaucrats are demanding of car companies these days.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:51 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 19,974,313 times
Reputation: 4078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
The G35/7 doesn't match the combination of dynamic balance of handling, compliance, and overall refinement/NVH of the 3-series. It's a perfectly serviceable alternative -- probably the best alternative in fact -- for those who are willing to settle for 90% of what the 3-series delivers on all these fronts, but it's priced accordingly.

With the ATS, Cadillac wasn't aiming for "serviceable alternative." The early reports coming in suggests the ATS does match the 3-series as an overall dynamic driving package, and by some accounts even bests it. Plus the G is getting long in the tooth and will need an overhaul soon. What are the chances it will be able to meet new emissions and fuel economy targets and still be a serious top-tier C-segment competitor while still holding the line on price? Recessionary climate be damned, it costs money to achieve what the bureaucrats are demanding of car companies these days.
Here I can agree with everything you've said. I owned a G35 prior to my Genesis Coupe and at the time the Infiniti offered greater value (and in my opinion significantly improved styling) when compared to the 3 series. Right now the G37 has fallen behind every regard except for maybe price. Spy shots of the redesign have been floating around so it looks like a new one is due soon. I'm looking forward to see how it stacks up.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,700 posts, read 24,920,758 times
Reputation: 18970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
With the ATS, Cadillac wasn't aiming for "serviceable alternative." The early reports coming in suggests the ATS does match the 3-series as an overall dynamic driving package, and by some accounts even bests it. Plus the G is getting long in the tooth and will need an overhaul soon. What are the chances it will be able to meet new emissions and fuel economy targets and still be a serious top-tier C-segment competitor while still holding the line on price? Recessionary climate be damned, it costs money to achieve what the bureaucrats are demanding of car companies these days.
This.

Cadillac has been pretty upfront that the ATS is not a Hyundai and that as a brand, they're tired of building Hyundais. The ATS 2.5 isn't worth mentioning, it's a car that never should have been built. The turbo, however, starts below $35k, including destination... or about $1500 less than a 328i. That's about what I expected it to be priced at. Similarly, don't expect the new CTS to come with a ~$10k discount on the 5.

Honestly, looking at it, all that really matters is how it drives to me. It loses on practicality to the 3-series... tight back seat, smaller trunk in a larger car. On the other hand, on the interior front I think it has better styling. And on the exterior I'm not really a fan of either the ATS or the new F30 so that's a wash.
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