Cadillac ATS: Review and Impressions (Japanese, purchase, Audi, engines)

[louie0406]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Other than the LCD display it looks like it came out of a Impala on a Hertz lot.

Audi and Lexus set the standard with their interiors as far as I am concerned.

That's EXACTLY what it looks like!

[jaypee]

I don't have a dog in this fight -- can't afford either car - but the November issue of Car and Driver has a BMW 3- and ATS comparo with the ATS trouncing the BMW in the chassis (ATS is "the best handling sports sedan in the market today") but lost in all other categories.

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by flynavyj

Don't know if this was said yet, but this instrument cluster looks bottom dollar...C'mon designers, OMG! Hopefully it looks a little more tasteful in person...but I like the cluster in my Volkswagens more.



edit - This car is located in Chicago, and is a ATS 3.6 AWD listed for $50,xxx

The instrument cluster really doesn't look that bad in person. The picture is definitely unflattering but in person, it looks nice. I didn't get an opportunity to see it at nighttime but I imagine it looks even better lite up in the blue hue.

[louie0406]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

The instrument cluster really doesn't look that bad in person. The picture is definitely unflattering but in person, it looks nice. I didn't get an opportunity to see it at nighttime but I imagine it looks even better lite up in the blue hue.

For a $50k sports sedan that's competing with manufacturers such as Audi and BMW, it should look much better than "not bad". Instead it looks very cheap.

[iTsLiKeAnEgG]

Originally Posted by deevel79

For a $50k sports sedan that's competing with manufacturers such as Audi and BMW, it should look much better than "not bad". Instead it looks very cheap.

I suppose it could just be a poorly taken photo. I'll see what it looks like in person. Strangely enough at least from photos, the XTS seems to have a much fancier digital gauge layout.

[SpeedyAZ]

Originally Posted by deevel79

For a $50k sports sedan that's competing with manufacturers such as Audi and BMW, it should look much better than "not bad". Instead it looks very cheap.

That photo is poorly taken, it really looks better in person. Look at the 3 Series cluster in photo's and it doesn't look good either:



Looks pretty unflattering.

Here's a better pic of the ATS cluster.

[iTsLiKeAnEgG]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

That photo is poorly taken, it really looks better in person. Look at the 3 Series cluster in photo's and it doesn't look good either:



Looks pretty unflattering.

Here's a better pic of the ATS cluster.

I'll say that during daytime lighting the 3 series setup looks much better. The huge chunk of black plastic with narrow gauge cut outs is pretty distracting on the ATS. Either way, now we're just fighting about gauges. Gauges don't make a car and I can live with cheap looking gauges if the rest of the interior is better than the competition and the chassis keeps up with my demands.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by bmwguydc

My numbers were a lot closer, using the zip code where the car would be purchased in New York.

ATS 3.6L Premium AWD with most options ($1k extra for a sunroof and an extra $995 charge for paint) = $54,950
335 X-Drive Luxury with tech/active cruise control/cold weather (similar spec, but no charge for paint/sunroof) = $55,745

Just throwing in the sunroof and paint, Cadillac would have a price advantage of a couple of thousand over the BMW, but I guess I should be thankful that GM did not do its laundry list of options, though there are way too many packages with the 2.0l in my opinion.

It is definitely closer on the upper end of the scale then it is in the middle of the market. Hence, the reason there are so many packages on the 2.0T. I don't find it all that disconcerting or too many though, BMW offers 4 different trim lines for each engine option from which you then pick packages. Audi is even more jumbled. I think the Cadillac website is more to blame here. If it was a more linear, pick your engine and drive wheels and then select trim, it would make more sense.

The degree to which I think it's slightly overpriced would span that difference ($5-8k), $1,995 in excess options charges (sunroof and paint), duty of around $1k on the BMW because it is imported, goodwill for the BMW with class-leading equipment, such as the 8-speed automatic, over the Cadillac's 6-speed, ~$2,000 (what I would expect to pay for an 8-speed option, should GM have had one available, though that would make it more expensive than the 335). So, that comes to about $4,995, before deducting for a personal value decision (and offsetting the extra that BMW charges across the board) where the ATS is larger overall (slight detriment because it will be a Manhattan-based vehicle), yet has a smaller back seat (factor because of regular back seat adult passengers, though not every day), and smaller trunk. Thus, that's how I came up with my estimation that it's about $5-$8k or so overpriced when evaluating it as a purchase for my aunt (who is a boomer).

Not going to argue, though there is a fair amount of personal value in that number, but that is what it is and will be different for everyone.

For a $50k MSRP, the configuration I specified above would be a fair value on an ATS. For $48k, it would be a good value. I think the ATS is a very good car, as I have mentioned, but not when it's less than $1k between it and the 335.

I guess that's the stick. Does a car that is at least being reviewed as 9.9/10ths as good overall, a tick better on driving dynamics and at a slight cost savings offer enough to overcome the BMW nameplate advantage?

Originally Posted by Tourian

There is no tier 1 model. Stop kidding yourself. Whoever wins (sales) gets to make the rules.

The top four best selling premium vehicles:

Lexus ES - a tarted up Camry/Avalon (how is that tier 1? FWD and based on a cheaper car from a lower line.)
Lexus RX - a high riding tarted up Camry wagon (ditto)
Mercedes E
BMW 3

That's why the ATS is a "tier one" car no matter who makes it. If the XTS were to somehow outsell the ES ( which it won't, but the Lacrosse might and the two combined most likely will) it would make GM execs very happy and they couldn't care less what tier the internet people put it in. That's why they put all their emphasis on making competitors for those four vehicles first before ANYTHING else. Lacrosse/XTS, SRX, CTS, ATS. Everything else is secondary.

I think it's obvious that there are "Tier One" brands, but you are very correct that not every car a Tier One brand sells is a Tier One car. The ES and RX being very clear examples of the case. What I don't get is that everyone has been clamoring for Cadillac/GM/Domestic Company to build a car that actually challenges the 3-series. Now that they've done it by all objective measures, people are nitpicking it because of the badge. This is easily the most competitive market in the automotive world in terms of buyer perception, so I get the criticisms and comparisons, but let's face it. Cadillac put out a car that is 99% of a 3-series on their first real try at doing it. BMW has been refining the 3-series formula for decades. No matter how you slice it this car is a winner for GM from an egnineering perspective.

Originally Posted by Malloric

Perception.

The A4 and IS250 aren't running around with rental car engines. The IS does get a fair amount of flak for the IS250 being too weak. Both it and especially the A4 are not trying to be sports sedans as much as the ATS or 3-series... maybe that should be amended to say previous 3-series. There's just something off-putting about selling a driver's car with a rental engine.

I've agreed plenty that the 2.5L isn't the engine I would pick for that car. However, performance wise it does stack up relatively well to the other base engines in terms of performance. The base model was made to hit a price point that these other makes occupy with their base models. While I would have liked a better engine in the base car, you also aren't getting "less of a car" like you often do with the others.

I don't put a whole lot of stock in reviews, but I have to say that's about what I expected. I have driven the new 3-series... and it's a fantastic car. For a 5-series. It's just not a very good 3-series. The ATS looks like it could be a real contender for a driver's car... but they didn't build it. At $36.5 the V6 ATS would, imo, bet a very compelling package. Not up to par with the 335i in engine, perhaps, but for the price of 328i that's a forgivable transgression. The 2.0T has been pretty much universally panned as mediocre at best... again, I'd like to test drive it myself, but form third-party accounts the V6 is the engine to get. Unfortunately, you can't buy a V6 without CUE. Worse yet, you can't buy a V6 with a manual.

I have yet to see a review that actually panned the ATS. Most are saying that it's at least 99% as good overall and in terms of driving dynamics is arguably better. I have also yet to see anyone pan any engine but the base 2.5L. Performance of both the 2.0T and 3.6L equal that of the 328i and 335i. The ATS is lighter and has more power at each comparison point, but the BMW gains a lot from the 8-speed auto.

I do agree that not offering the V6 with a manual was a mistake. However, I'm sure in the land of buyers it would have been a seldom selected option. The "drivers car" is supposed to be the 2.0T.

I don't think that's exactly a fit for Cadillac's image... I don't think of myself as a Cadillac buyer. Most of their products are crap. The CTS is okay for people that aren't geriatrics and the Escalade is a nice truck for people with metal in their teeth. The fact that I think a stripped-down, no frills V6 manual driver's car sounds like something I'd really be interested in might be the best indication that it isn't. Cadillac builds cars for fat white men who play golf and rappers, not guys in their 20s looking for something with a bit more class than a StiEVO. Given, Cadillacs image is definitely changing... but that much? Not so sure.

Most of their products are crap? I get that given your perception they might not fit the image you want to project...which is what exactly? However, I've never heard anyone refer to any of the current vehicles like the CTS, SRX, ATS, XTS and Escalade as "crap". If anything those vehicles have been steadily changing Cadillacs perception and place in the market for a long time now. From where Cadillac was, it's amazing that we can even get into a pissing contest over whether the ATS is a better choice then a 3-series. The conversation isn't even about, can the ATS compete, but about is it a better "value" or does it match the "perception" people want to portray...the fact the ATS can compete directly and do it so well is a pretty strong testament.

Originally Posted by Malloric

Everything smaller than a 3.5 V6 is not a rental engine. A rental engine is an engine that is readily found in a main stream rental cars. The 2.0T is not found in rentals. The 328i engine is not found in rentals. The 2.5 V6 is not found in rentals. None are rental car engines as they are not engines produced for rental and fleet sales. The 2.5 in the ATS is. It's about snobbery and perception and not diluting your brand by putting a rental car drive train in it. You enter a slipper slope... pretty soon your making four cylinder cars with plastic seats just because you can mark them up a few grand and turn a quick profit. Mercedes among my generation has no panache like it did before.

lol, I've managed carsharing fleets, aka rentals, that had 3-series, IS250's and A4's among others. There are plenty of those cars out there in the fleet market. Are you really going to hang your hat on snobbery and perception? So, people are going to out of hand dismiss the entire lineup because the base ATS has the same engine as a Malibu or Impala?

Start? They already do. It's not a concern as it's not a rental car engine in a luxury marque. Not that I particularly care. BMW stopped producing cars that I had any interest in a decade ago. Aside from AMG and M, anyway.

So, what pray tell is your ideal car?

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

The instrument cluster really doesn't look that bad in person. The picture is definitely unflattering but in person, it looks nice. I didn't get an opportunity to see it at nighttime but I imagine it looks even better lite up in the blue hue.

I didn't think it looked that bad. To me it's about being not aesthically offensive or distracting while being easy to read. The ATS gauges reminded me of the ones in my older Audi's. They were simple, clean and easy to read. The BMW ones look like any other 3-series from the past 10 years to me, good, but nothing special. If you want to continue down this path, let's talk about CUE vs. whatever medieval torture device BMW is using these days.

Originally Posted by iTsLiKeAnEgG

I'll say that during daytime lighting the 3 series setup looks much better. The huge chunk of black plastic with narrow gauge cut outs is pretty distracting on the ATS. Either way, now we're just fighting about gauges. Gauges don't make a car and I can live with cheap looking gauges if the rest of the interior is better than the competition and the chassis keeps up with my demands.

Exactly, if the best we can nitpick on the ATS for relative to the 3-series is that it only cost a little less and the gauges aren't quite as good...I'd say Cadillac hit a homerun.

[robrobrob]

I think the dash misses its mark because it is flat. If you look at the BMW, the round dials are elevated and separated from the rest of the dash. Sort of like it is assembled rather than painted on.

Ultimately, the success of the ATS is going to be determined how much value are consumers going to place on the BMW badge. Cadillac thinks it is only a grand or two. Hopefully, they are right. I personally think it is a lot more than that.

[louie0406]

Although the ATS may be a strong performer when matched up against the 3-series, I still think its too early to tell how good a car it is from a quality standpoint. Many Caddy's that I've driven and have been driven in begin to creek, squeak, and rattle just after a few yrs. Lets see how their resale value holds up compared to that of the 3-series. Seems like a fine car but If I were on the market for a sports sedan, I highly doubt I'd take it over a 3-series at that price point.

I have a friend with a 2005 Caddy CTS-V and it rattles everywhere. Everything in the car just feels loose. I have another friend with a 16yr old E36 M3 and till this day the car just feels solid all over. The quality and craftsmanship in the BMW is quite evident.