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Old 03-05-2014, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,787 posts, read 17,704,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
I know i was not completely fair, but largely, it is a rebadged Volt.
You do not know what the word re-badged means.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,714 posts, read 24,949,937 times
Reputation: 18982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
Actually, the Volt is more cutting edge than the Tesla, which is simply a big car with a LOT of batteries in it. No special battery energy density, no thermal management for the battery pack, nothing. It literally is just an electric city car scaled up with nice materials. The Volt and ELR are cutting edge, with better battery tech and more energy density for the size of the battery pack, thermal management of that battery pack to minimize fluctuations in range due to temperature, and of course, the range extending gas generator that means you're not limited to the battery range OR the placement of charging stations to get you where you need to go. I use electricity to commute with exclusively, BUT I was also able to take the same car and drive to Main and back through PA and southern upstate NY missing the I-95 traffic. That same trip could NOT be made with a Tesla yet.

Tesla also doesn't have enough dealerships and service centers, has not turned a profit yet and many people are concerned that they, as a startup in a mature market, are not going to be around in the future. That makes the ELR a better fit for them. They can drive on electricity when they want to, and drive ANYWHERE in the country if they have to. And get service at any GM dealer. And as nice as the Tesla is (and I love them, don't get me wrong) I thin the ELR looks better (and it doesn't look like the CTS coupe, it looks like a baby Lamborghini with a Caddy grille).




Actually, have you looked at the new CTS? It takes in a lot of the ATS improvements, but moves up a tiny bit to compete directly with the BMW 5 series and Mercedes E class, with the ATS competing with the BMW 3 series directly and the Mercedes C class (and Audi A4). Caddy is aiming directly at the Europeans, and as such needed to do so with directly competing products, not some weird "tweener" product that competes with no one. I'd take the ATS over any BMW 3 series out now, and can't wait to see how the V version shakes out.
Time to actually educate yourself on the Tesla rather than just sprouting off half-cocked displaying your ignorance. They're both using Li-Ion battery packs, both use thermal management. Neither is technically all that innovative anymore. The Volt has been around for too many years. The Tesla technology is substantively unchanged from the Roadster, just incremental improvements. Neither use fancy batteries. No one is. The tried and true laptop cells are tough to beat.

A hybrid like the Volt definitely does have the advantage of range anxiety compared to a pure EV like the Tesla. Unfortunately, there's dozens of hybrids and more conventional hybrids just are better buys. The ELR gets 82 mpg-e in electric mode for its short 35-mile range and then 33, which isn't that bad. Basically 35 mpg It isn't wretchedly slow, reasonably peppy, but a far cry from the Model S. The Model S is eminently more practical with room four four adults in comfort plus way more luggage. It's also more efficient, 89-95 mpg-e depending on model. Of course, you've got the limited range. Stopping to recharge your 265 mile Tesla will be a pain in the ass while the Volt or ELR you can just pull into a gas station and get back to driving your slower, less practical, less efficient car. Alternatively, you could just buy a Lexus GS.

It costs less, is as quick as Model S (doesn't handle as well), very comfortable and practical, and gets practically the same mileage as the Volt/ELR after it runs out of juice in 30 minutes of driving.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:13 PM
 
4,794 posts, read 12,348,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourian View Post
You do not know what the word re-badged means.
A lot of people don't. That term is getting tossed around entirely too much.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,228 posts, read 15,244,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Time to actually educate yourself on the Tesla rather than just sprouting off half-cocked displaying your ignorance. They're both using Li-Ion battery packs, both use thermal management. Neither is technically all that innovative anymore. The Volt has been around for too many years. The Tesla technology is substantively unchanged from the Roadster, just incremental improvements. Neither use fancy batteries. No one is. The tried and true laptop cells are tough to beat.
Talk about ignorance, the Volt's battery pack is liquid cooled and heated, using a rather complex management system that the Tesla lacks. The Tesla uses a bunch of small cells tied together, while the Volt uses a special flat plate system that allows for coolant circulation.





I've been following Tesla since they started and love what they are doing (and want a Model S, myself), but really it IS just a city electric car that's been supersized.


Quote:
A hybrid like the Volt definitely does have the advantage of range anxiety compared to a pure EV like the Tesla. Unfortunately, there's dozens of hybrids and more conventional hybrids just are better buys. The ELR gets 82 mpg-e in electric mode for its short 35-mile range and then 33, which isn't that bad. Basically 35 mpg


ONLY if you routinely exceed the electric range by a LOT. 80% of drivers in the US would never exceed the range during day to day driving, That's the part people like you will never get until you OWN one. I drive on pure electricicty 99% of the time, getting a lifetime fuel mileage average WITH the long trips factored in, of well over 175 mpg! You cannot do that with a traditional hybrid. Oh, and since the ELR has the same basic battery pack as the Volt, the real world ACTUAL electric range tends to be closer to 50-60 miles. I've done it routinely. Hell, in the summer, the INDICATED range when fully charged is over 45 miles before you even move. And then I can go 10 actual miles on 2-3 miles of indicated range.


Quote:
Alternatively, you could just buy a Lexus GS.

It costs less, is as quick as Model S (doesn't handle as well), very comfortable and practical, and gets practically the same mileage as the Volt/ELR after it runs out of juice in 30 minutes of driving.
Actually, My Volt gets 50 mpg in the real world after it runs out of juice, that's what I got on the trip up to Maine. And it was more than fast enough to keep up with traffic, which is all you can do. The Tesla's not really much faster in the real world (a bit quicker but when you USE that quickness, you reduce range farther) And the GS would get crap for fuel mileage on my commute, where the Volt never ever uses gasoline. Cant' do that with the GS at ALL.

You really don't understand how well the Volt/ELR works in actual use, do you?
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:09 AM
 
3,751 posts, read 5,828,751 times
Reputation: 5452
I have to give Cadillac credit for trying to change with the times. I am currently driving my late mother's 05 deVille and while it is not my particular style( after driving 5-speed Accords), I have become accustomed to its creature comforts. I doubt I will buy another but currently also have a Lexus as well. As far as EVs, I can not see buying one, whether Tesla or ELR/Volt. I want a car I can drive more than 250 miles without having to plug in someplace to continue driving. Those cost too much for a city car, IMHO.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
21,714 posts, read 24,949,937 times
Reputation: 18982
And so does the Tesla battery pack. It isn't a hybrid like the Volt, so it can't really use the gasoline engine's waste heat to warm the battery pack. That's a design limitation of electric cars versus hybrids. It has to be plugged in for the battery warmer to operate. I'm not impressed by complex for complex's sake. If the Volt was more efficient because of it's added complexity, great. The thing is it's not. It's actually I think the least efficient PHEV on the market. It is an interesting choice if looking at other PHEVs, however. Sure, it is less efficient overall than other PHEVs it competes against, but it has the longest electric range. For example, the Accord PHEV is just more efficient. It's rated at 115 mpge versus 98 mpge for the Volt. For gas it's rated at 46 combined versus 37 combined. Partly it's that it's a better, more efficient drive train than the Volt has; partly it's that it isn't lugging around as much battery. It only has a 13-mile electric range versus the Volt's 38. Big difference.

End result is for a typical 25-mile drive the Volt ends up being cheaper since electricity is more cost effective than gasoline. So if you're just doing 25-mile trips exclusively and charging to full before each one, the Volt will save you 1.24 cents per mile compared to the Accord PHEV. It's also cheaper up front for a myriad of reasons. It's a cheaper car, it's more subsidized, and GM is selling them at a loss. Regardless, they both drive well. They aren't Priuses which are great for efficiency but horrifically slow and handle poorly and are noisy. To the consumer, the Volt really makes more sense imo than the Accord PHEV.

http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?a...34395&id=34345

As far as PHEVs go, the Volt is one of the best despite being much less efficient. The extra battery range means it qualifies for more government handouts lowering the cost and keeps its operating costs low since electricity is cheaper. At the end of the day, though, PHEVs just don't make any sense. Hybrids barely do. The Accord Hybrid gets 47 combined, costs $5,000 less (12,500 if not counting the government handouts) uses $200 more in fuel costs per year than the Volt does fuel + electricity. Saving only $200/year it would take between 25 and 62.5 years to break even. Like I said, they don't make any economic sense. Hybrids aren't a whole lot better.
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