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I'm probably not the greatest example of a hipster homeowner but I was a relatively recent graduate and initally wanted to spend 1/3 of my income on my starter home. Housing in Berwyn was a little below that and, back in 2003, a bungalow there was about the same price as a 900 s.f. condo in Oak Park. So I can't really say it was less than I could afford though that approach was laughably conservative 10 years ago, when everyone was just basically tacking a 0 on the end of their income and buying whatever that number was.
If I go back and factor in mortgage and tax savings had I purchased in Oak Park where I was renting at the time, I probably saved in the ballpark of $70,000 over the last decade on housing costs by choosing Berwyn.
That's more important to me personally than "keeping it real," which I suppose makes sense for some. There is a "cookie cutter" flavor to some suburbs that's hard to put a finger on but no doubt exists. But then again, that's easy enough to avoid by moving to Oak Park, Evanston or even the City.
But I will say Berwyn is certainly interesting -- much more so than it was a decade ago. Now, for that reason, I see a huge potential upside should that continue, and probably not much of a downside from where I am now should it go nowhere. So that's what's keeping me there even though technically, I'm living in a house considerably below my means now. This is all IMHO of course.
I think you run in different circles. Many of us follow Mr. Money Mustache in philosophy. We have a lot more $$ then we show, and we may have different goals/values. And our lives are pretty great.
Agreed. I will be moving to a place with cheaper rent than my current simply because I like to spend my money on things other than housing. As long as I have the basics, I'm fine. Not trying to impress anyone with my home. I'd rather impress them with my international travel.
I think its safer to live slightly below your means. Jobs are not very secure and you don't really know what might be down the pike. I do know a lot of my friends suffered job losses in their fifties and it was hard for them to get another one. It seems like some of those bungalows that many considered starter home have a good deal of space. When I look back at my first home in Skokie which was a mid century side entry Georgian, there was nothing wrong with it, I could have stayed there for life, but got bit by the mini mansion bug. Now see that might not be such a great thing for a lot of folks. Hence Berwyn could be a solid option for starters. Many of the home there would be double in price or more in certain areas of the city.
I think its safer to live slightly below your means. Jobs are not very secure and you don't really know what might be down the pike. I do know a lot of my friends suffered job losses in their fifties and it was hard for them to get another one. It seems like some of those bungalows that many considered starter home have a good deal of space. When I look back at my first home in Skokie which was a mid century side entry Georgian, there was nothing wrong with it, I could have stayed there for life, but got bit by the mini mansion bug. Now see that might not be such a great thing for a lot of folks. Hence Berwyn could be a solid option for starters. Many of the home there would be double in price or more in certain areas of the city.
I completely agree that is makes sense to have a solid "cushion" when you decide to buy anything these days -- even for folks in very well compensated positions the breadth of the destructive forces of the "economic melt down" that accompanied the bursting of the easy money housing bubble has taught most folks that it is less than prudent to sink every last dime into real estate on the false belief that "prices will just keep climbing".
I also understand what Bru is saying about his decision to buy back in 2003 being a way to get a real single family house instead of a 900 sf condo. There is little doubt that he too is still way ahead financially.
What I have a hard time seeing, and maybe this just my own misintrepation of how LK is laying out his premise, is that if folks could afford a home in Evanston or Oak Park or Broofield or Logan Square and then choosing Berwyn for about the same money when it is pretty much uncontested that those places are "better" in everyway except being generally more costly / more affluent. I just don't buy into the "keeping real" thing as being a real "plus"... When I start to roll that around in my head it just does not compute. Mind you just the other day I was "defending" even Glenddale Heights as "not a ghetto" becuase I don't doubt that some folks do see a four bedroom house out there as a "more for your money" but I still would not suggest folks that would shop GH are doing so to "keep it real" but becuase they don't have $600K for a nice 4br in Wheaton or Glen Ellyn...
My personal observation is that most newer homebuyers in Berwyn aren't wealthy people looking to be real. Rather, they fit the mold of starter home buyers. There are a lot of artists, teachers, musicians, social service workers, and even public sector employees moving in. These individuals are usually educated, which may bode well for Berwyn's biggest achilles heel -- the schools -- in the long run. You're already starting to see a lot of parent activism, and it's coming from this educated/lower salary segment. They want better schools but can't afford an Oak Park or Evanston, so there's a motivation for involvement.
It'll be interesting to see where it goes. It could be as simple as enough of them sending their kids to public schools, which could eventually lead to a Nettelhorst situation in one or two schools that eventually snowballs. The lower scores are driven more by demographics than poor quality/management, at least at the D98 and D100 level. D201 is a whole different story though.
What I have a hard time seeing, and maybe this just my own misintrepation of how LK is laying out his premise, is that if folks could afford a home in Evanston or Oak Park or Broofield or Logan Square and then choosing Berwyn for about the same money when it is pretty much uncontested that those places are "better" in everyway except being generally more costly / more affluent.
Who said anything about being able to afford a more expensive place to live? The people I know who moved to Berwyn found it an acceptable alternative to a single family house in a more expensive area like Logan Square, which they couldn't afford. And they would probably not ever move to, say, Carol Stream or Glendale Heights as an alternative. They are not cross-shopping Berwyn with Oak Park and Evanston, but instead less expensive areas of the NW side. "Keeping it real" was your phrase. I was just saying that Berwyn is more acceptable to the aging hipsters I know because of a perceived authenticity (which I don't necessarily agree with, except for the architectural aspect of it). To them, it doesn't represent as much of a suburban compromise--even though many of the further-out cookie cutter suburbs are becoming demographically similar to Berwyn.
Who said anything about being able to afford a more expensive place to live? The people I know who moved to Berwyn found it an acceptable alternative to a single family house in a more expensive area like Logan Square, which they couldn't afford. And they would probably not ever move to, say, Carol Stream or Glendale Heights as an alternative. They are not cross-shopping Oak Park and Evanston, but instead less expensive areas of the NW side. "Keeping it real" was your phrase. I was just saying that Berwyn is more acceptable to the aging hipsters I know because of a perceived authenticity (which I don't necessarily agree with, except for the architectural aspect of it). To them, it doesn't represent as much of a suburban compromise--even though many of the further-out cookie cutter suburbs are becoming demographically similar to Berwyn.
You touch on another interesting problem. If you don't have a lot of money, it can be pretty hard to choose a community. Up until maybe 10 years ago, people just drove until they qualified and were more or less safe. But a lot of the exburbs have seen low income influxes and do not seem to be trending up. Buying a tract home an hour from the City will bring a lot more things to worry about than not being real.
I mean, sure, one can move to Oak Park and be pretty much assured a future of good tidings (unless you have to take a pay cut or lose a job, in which case you may be screwed). But what about a recent grad couple with a budget of $225k? This board is rife with posts about how hard it is to get into desirable suburbs on such a budget, and these posts are correct.
So what then? Brookfield? Sure, it's nice and has some good schools, but it's a small community and doesn't have unlimited housing options (and not all of it is served by RB). Forest Park? I like it and looked there myself, but it suffers from the same school problem Berwyn does, so I looked at that as a choice between a Ford and a Mercury. So where else? Summit? Northlake? Broadview? Bridgeview? A lot of these homebuyers we're talking about are simply being practical versus real.
A lot of these homebuyers we're talking about are simply being practical versus real.
Sure, but you could argue that there are options more practical than Berwyn, like perhaps Lombard which has better schools. But Berwyn is cooler than Lombard. That may sound crazy for a suburb that's always been known for a bit of tackiness (the car kabob and Svengoolie), but it's true. Just like the dive bar with the Old Style sign in an old Polish neighborhood is cooler than the similarly working class bar in a strip mall in Hanover Park, at least as far as the hipster mindset is concerned.
Sure, but you could argue that there are options more practical than Berwyn, like perhaps Lombard which has better schools. But Berwyn is cooler than Lombard. That may sound crazy for a suburb that's always been known for a bit of tackiness (the car kabob and Svengoolie), but it's true. Just like the dive bar with the Old Style sign in an old Polish neighborhood is cooler than the similarly working class bar in a strip mall in Hanover Park, at least as far as the hipster mindset is concerned.
On the school options, yes, you could argue that, and yes, you would win that argument. But Glenbard East isn't exactly setting the world afire on the PSAE, and is now nearly 44% low income (up from 24% just 5 years ago). Still, it's certainly better than Morton West, I will give you that!
However, as you point out, a home purchase entails a lot more than just a single factor, and school factor would turn around if enough people choose it based on those other factors. Still a tough choice.
Aaah that does seem to be a more understanable "reframing"....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid
Sure, but you could argue that there are options more practical than Berwyn, like perhaps Lombard which has better schools. But Berwyn is cooler than Lombard. That may sound crazy for a suburb that's always been known for a bit of tackiness (the car kabob and Svengoolie), but it's true. Just like the dive bar with the Old Style sign in an old Polish neighborhood is cooler than the similarly working class bar in a strip mall in Hanover Park, at least as far as the hipster mindset is concerned.
I would argue that this is more a question of "optics" (which I find to be a very funny way of saying "visual /photographic" presentation of a situation as is common with TV coverage / still photgraphs of poltical campaigns...) than reality. Yes, Berwyn has mostly solid brick homes erected during the late 40s/ early 50s that look more like the contruction style of Chicago than the mix of ranches / spiit levels / vinyl sided homes that are more common in Lombard which are in the main about a decade or so newer. That said on any given block in such a section of Lombard I might find folks from Turkey, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Thailand, Mexico, or former Eastern Bloc countries living all together in relative peace doing thier best to live the "American dream" as best they can while "keeping it real" with their franchised dry cleaner, sandwich stand, car repair business, ethnic grocery, or other not all that easy retail oriented small business...
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This is a different kind of logic...
