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I suspect the tests results are reported in way that is meant to be confusing.
The averages in Illinois are pulled down by the atrocious performance of many schools. The schools / districts that are on AWS/ AEWS status are not desirable. That would be the big red letters. Schools that do make adequate yearly progress are given a green check. As a general rule, given how weak the state mandated tests are and the low standards that are common in Illinois I would strongly recommend avoiding any school not on the Illinois Honor Roll for Academic Excellence (that would be a purple schoolhouse) -- Illinois Honor Roll - Academic Excellence Awards 2010 List
The honor roll schools account for less than 5 percent of the public schools in Illinois. What about the other over 95 percent of the public schools in Illinois? As for schools on academic watch. Over 75 percent of Illinois public schools are on academic watch, AWS, or AEWS to one degree or another.
I agree with you that obviously the 3 to 5 percent of public schools receiving honors status or blue ribbon status are obviously doing better as a whole. But if you look close at that list a large majority of the schools are located in higher income areas.
There aren't many schools on that list with a large percentage of lower income students. And those are the schools that should be highlighted because it's pretty much a given that schools within school district boundaries only in exclusively higher income areas are going to have mostly students scoring well on the test. But I tend to give more credit to the schools that have more students coming from lower economic demographics attending and are still able to achieve high test scores. That shows real progress and academic achievement of the students and a superior school faculty. Not just taking credit for having mostly students coming from affluent households without economic problems. I think it's pretty much a given that a public school that has fewer than 10 percent low income students is a pretty good public school. Or shall we say has mostly pretty good students who score better on test. Whether or not these students are attending the most exclusive school districts. Students who do not come from economically disadvantaged households still tend to score higher, and make the honor roll when attending other public schools in not so exclusive school districts.
Last edited by allen2323; 01-25-2012 at 09:45 AM..
C'mon Chet. In one thread you're saying that if inner ring suburbs like Hillside aren't given a chance, they will fall into blight, and that will be bad for all of us. Then, here, you're saying to avoid Elmwood Park. Did you not have your corn flakes today
This aside, I would be somewhat concerned about EP going through rapid demographic changes, as those can create community instability and unpredictable consequences, especially in a housing market that looks murky going forward. Elmwood Park High School has gone from 17% low income in 2006 to 38% in 2011. District wide, it's gone from 23% to 41% in that same span. Statewide, there was an 8% jump in the same span. I'm not saying to avoid EP, but I'd definitely talk with some residents there and see what the feeling is if you are interested in that community.
I think it's pretty much a given that a public school that has fewer than 10 percent low income students is a pretty good school. Or shall we say has mostly pretty good students who score better on test. These are the same economic group of students who score well and make the roll when attending public schools in not so exclusive school districts.
Though few would admit it, this is why people seek out these schools. I hate to say it but, sadly, people don't go, "wow, George Washington Elementary did great with 90% low income kids, let's send little Jimmy and Suzie there!"
It isn't really about the test scores. You are 100% spot on. A child of a family which values education and stays involved can get a great education even at schools which don't score well on standardized tests. I've even seen one kid go to MIT after attending the much maligned Morton West.
The curriculum is largely the same at most Illinois schools. Low scores are usually more indicative of higher numbers of academically challenged students not doing well on the standardized test than flawed teaching. There may not be the same "bells and whistles," or the necessary funding to deal with the most challenged students, but a quality education is available. People, often subconsciously, avoid them for reasons not related to test scores per se.
The suggestion I made earlier for Hillside was based entirely on ease of commute to Oak Brook, and the relocating couple in that case had no need for an elementary school and indicated that they do not intend to be in the area long enough to avail themselves of the notably deficient academent environment at Provisio West...
I completely discount any leniancy for "how badly prepared the student population may be" as the rankings of the Illinois Honor Roll DOES IN FACT have a specific category for schools that do perform well despite having challenging student population. The name give to these schools is "spotlight" . Chicago itself has dozens of such schools, as do other suburbs, however Elmwood Park is not so merited. There are a handful of schools that are also singled out for "improvement" which is commenable, but the dearth of such schools also highlights just how rare it is for a school that is poorly performing to turn things around...
That difficulty is really the single biggest reason why I strongly recommend to folks contemplating relocation to seek out schools that are already on the Honor Roll -- it is just too risky to assume that any ammount of "parent involvement" will be enough to overcome the poor environment that infects so many underperforming schools. I do not doubt that there are families that have overcome tremendous odds to send their children to top tier universities however that does not change the fact that when a school is unable to meet the low standards of the state of Illinois mandated tests the prospects of students being well prepared for any college are grim. Often times the schools that fail to meet those standards are staffed by people overwhelmed with a chaotic mix of transient students, violence and utter disregard for the importance for the value of education. Sadlly those characteristics are found in schools that may statistically be a majority non-minority population, as is the case with EP High.
If you choose to ignore the objective data that details the racial and economic background of students, as well as the documented success / lack of same for schools that is your choice, however when a family is considering where to live to have access to public schools it is highly irresponsible to assume that such data is not useful. The very reason that Chicago has its wide array of selective admissions schools is to help improve the performance of schools and give minorities access to the best educational options. The degree to which this successful is directly obeservable in the TOP NOTCH performance of school like Northside and Payton Prep. No doubt the involvement of dedicated parents is necessary to maintain that performance but to suggest that one ought to assume the preparation one receives at such a school is similar to what could be experienced at a low performing school is flat out folly. In regards to the top performing type student one of the best indicators of just how much the teachers and other students contribute to the atomosphere of success is to look at not just participation rates in the AP programs but the percentage of students who earn scores that translate into college placement credit. By this measure there is signficant performance edge at New Trier even when compared to similar schools like Hinsdale Central or Stevenson. The students at NT earn credit in about 95% of cases whereas the numbers for HC and Stevenson are in the mid/upper 80s -- which is still quite impressive but signficant enough to consider how much the specific teacher / peer students do in fact matter... This is especially worth pondering becuase the actual subject matter of AP classes is much more highly coordinated than other "mandated curriculum" from the State of Illinos. I would be highly suspicious of the experience of anyone that truly belivies the "curriculum is largely the same at most Illinois schools" in more than a superficial way -- better teachers in districts with policies that support rigorous and creative classroom methods can and do have radically different results especially when faced with a student body of motivated learners / supportive parents. For folks "stuck" in underperforming schools I see few options, the opportunity to avoid such districts is far wiser course of planning...
What you say is largely true but, again, when middle class people avoid school districts because of, ahem, "scores," ahem, we, on the macro level, are condemning a large group of people to substandard educations, through lost property values (less funding to provide the special services challenged learners need), fewer positive role models in the student body to improve performance, etc. And I am nearly certain that, since we are choosing to ignore this, we will face the consequences later on down the road, i.e. in the form of a workforce that's going to be largely unqualified to compete in the 21st Century global economy and help maintain our status as a First World nation.
Nothing good in life is free and this will not be either. Solution? The mentality is so ingrained it will be hard to correct without a major national overhaul in how education is accomplished.
There is a big difference between finding the best situation when contemplating a relocation and any sort of wholesale abandonment of public education. I doubt anyone could really orchestrate the latter, especially given the level of dysfunction / corruption that the genral populace accepts in Illinios.
The differences from district to district in per student expenditures among schools in the majority of the northern Illinois region are quite small. The decisions to support a shop class / faculty vs offering AP calculus or French are really the domain of the elected officials that I assume are mostly acting on the desires of the voters that selected them for the Board of Ed. These decisions are based less on "workforce realities" than a messy mix of asperations, short commings and false assumptions -- take a gander at the employment boards here or other forums and look at the tales of woe expressed by those that may have majored in the physical sciences, taking on large debts, and w/o and advanced degree now toiling away at the lowest level technician temp jobs. Contrast this to the relative cushiness enjoyed by those who are currently working for municipalities with securely funded defined benefit plans that are separate from thhe horribly hollowed pensions under the direct control of the State legislators...
The mis-information that too often is used by people that don't bother to dig into data and verify the common assumptions is truly the hardest thing to fight against...
There is a big difference between finding the best situation when contemplating a relocation and any sort of wholesale abandonment of public education. I doubt anyone could really orchestrate the latter, especially given the level of dysfunction / corruption that the genral populace accepts in Illinios.
The differences from district to district in per student expenditures among schools in the majority of the northern Illinois region are quite small. The decisions to support a shop class / faculty vs offering AP calculus or French are really the domain of the elected officials that I assume are mostly acting on the desires of the voters that selected them for the Board of Ed. These decisions are based less on "workforce realities" than a messy mix of asperations, short commings and false assumptions -- take a gander at the employment boards here or other forums and look at the tales of woe expressed by those that may have majored in the physical sciences, taking on large debts, and w/o and advanced degree now toiling away at the lowest level technician temp jobs. Contrast this to the relative cushiness enjoyed by those who are currently working for municipalities with securely funded defined benefit plans that are separate from thhe horribly hollowed pensions under the direct control of the State legislators...
The mis-information that too often is used by people that don't bother to dig into data and verify the common assumptions is truly the hardest thing to fight against...
Well, how we drove off the cliff is interesting but ultimately beside the point. The point is we're hurdling through the air. Unless our policymakers pull a large trampoline out of the trunk of their clown car and put it at the bottom, I'm afraid we're in for some serious trouble when the cost of the luxury of homogeneous schools comes home to roost.
Though few would admit it, this is why people seek out these schools. I hate to say it but, sadly, people don't go, "wow, George Washington Elementary did great with 90% low income kids, let's send little Jimmy and Suzie there!"
It isn't really about the test scores. You are 100% spot on. A child of a family which values education and stays involved can get a great education even at schools which don't score well on standardized tests. I've even seen one kid go to MIT after attending the much maligned Morton West.
The curriculum is largely the same at most Illinois schools. Low scores are usually more indicative of higher numbers of academically challenged students not doing well on the standardized test than flawed teaching. There may not be the same "bells and whistles," or the necessary funding to deal with the most challenged students, but a quality education is available. People, often subconsciously, avoid them for reasons not related to test scores per se.
When you look at all of the top tier universities. There usually is a sizable percentage of there student bodies that receive financial aid Pell Grants. Which is a financial need based form of financial aid. It's based on your families income which has to be below a certain amount to receive it. So not all of the top students with the brightest minds come from elitist and classist environments. Attending a suburban school district with no low income students and even fewer minority students does not somehow better prepare you for the real world. Or college for that matter. And generally the top 10 percent of the high school class fair much better in getting into highly selective schools. Regardless of what high school they attended. Selective colleges don't really care so much about what elitist high school you attended if you graduate in the bottom half of your high school class.
I just looked at the list in a few counties including Cook. With very few exceptions every high school is on the ASW list. It makes no difference if the school has 180 kids or 6,000. Racial make up doesn't seem to make a big difference. CPSl spend san average of $21000 per student and $70K per teacher. These are seasoned teachers with at minimum of 10 years teaching experience.
The teachers downstate earn $20-30K less annually. Expenditure per downstate averages $10K less that are equally qualified. I don't know the answer but the first thing I would do is kill all extra curricular programs until the grades improve.
Wow, well this thread really got away from me, didn't it? Thanks for all the input.
We found a place we really like in North Riverside that feeds into Riverside Brookfield High School and looked at the crime statistics and they're primarily thefts centered around the mall. Anyone have any feedback on North Riverside?
And to clarify: we are looking for a place with "good schools" because we'd like to put them to use eventually. We know that we could move again before our yet to be conceived children go to high school, but we've also seen how the crappy Forest Park high school situation has impacted the sale of our condo. We do not plan on using private schools at all. And, while we currently work in River Forest, we are hoping to find other jobs elsewhere, we just don't know where yet. Obviously, once we move we'd limit our job search according to our commute preferences.
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