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It is not a question of "surviving" it a question of what makes the most sense when RELOCATING FOR A NEW JOB and the answer, as I think I understand it and folks like Lookout Kid and other also grasp, is really centered around what has the most upside and least risk.
Look, I personally have nothing against East Leyden or Morton West or any other school that is not highly ranked. Truth be told I had dinner tonight with one of my friends that still teaches at Morton East, a fair number of families that have kids in their class seem to be hardworking people that understand the importance of getting a good education. That said the pitfalls at a school that really does have a large number of kids where English is not the first language makes for a whole lot of challenges. Parents that really do struggle to hold down multiple jobs that increasingly are not full time means lots of unsupervised time for kids to go astray.
The OP is willing to spend $400k or more. The low risk option is to find an area where that is close to the norm and will give them the best combination of like minded families, short commute and good schools.
Really if there are other options as low risk as the towns I've highlighted I would be delighted to see the OP look there too, but in the most ardent supporter of those towns would concede that is not the case.
Other day you two had Berwyn as blowing away the bad investment of Logan Square, one of the hottest 'hoods in Chicago. Now you got prices there capped at 300k, LOL! Doesn't seem too good a deal to me. People might buy there because of this big future thing you and ToraT were talking about? Maybe not if the schools stink?
Other day you two had Berwyn as blowing away the bad investment of Logan Square, one of the hottest 'hoods in Chicago. Now you got prices there capped at 300k, LOL! Doesn't seem too good a deal to me. People might buy there because of this big future thing you and ToraT were talking about? Maybe not if the schools stink?
The fact is ToriaT now owns an investment property in Berwyn. She has kids that are post college and they would have prefered that she a bought a place in Logan Square. I think she did the right think becuase if her $200k or $250k investment is worth 20% more in 3-5 years that is a great return and signs are that is still affordable / achievable gain.
You can't really get a single family detached home in Logan Square for even double what one costs in Berwyn and the pool of buyers that would find a SFH with crummy school options in Logan Square is never going to be as big as those that can afford now or after five years of appreciation in Berwyn. I don't see such appreciation being sustainable...
Similarly when the OP needs a good school district NOW it does not make sense to spend money on what is essentialy a speculative "bet" on either of those areas. The OP needs a place with good schools and upside potential is secondary...
There is another thread here about folks finding an (overpriced) home in Morton Grove, that too would not be a wise financial move. Even though the poster in that thread did not even have school aged kids yet it really never makes sense to "overpay" for a fixed up home in any town. Heck there was a poster asking about buying a home in Hinsdale for its land value to teardown a while back. It was my advice to them that since their ultimate budget was under $2.2M it was foolish to consider spending $800k for essentially a vacant lot. (But if they wanted to update the $800k house with even $200k out of pocket that might very well still be in the fat part of Hinsdsle pricing...).
This is not rocket science but you have to be able to find the right target for the each situation / budget.
The OP is this thread will do well sticking to towns that have good schools and homes in their price range.
The poster looking at Morton Grove would be fine looking at homes that are fairly priced as would somebody shopping in Berwyn or Hinsdale; each town has rather different range of prices and one's housing budget is most wisely spent staying in the sweet spot of prices for each town...
True, there are a lot of towns never mentioned on here. They are not the cream of the crop neither are they that bad. I personally would not mention the ones you have listed because I know little about them. I mostly post about places I either have lived in or are familiar with.
The trend toward increased concentration of employment in the Loop makes towns with good rail service a better choice than towns where rail service is an afterthought / non-existent. Even in areas that the towns are "refocusing" development efforts near their rail stations (Orland Park is one such example) that really does not change the fact that there are a whole more subdivsions / retail strip centers developed during the "car centric era". Nothing wrong with this but it means that most folks in town won't be able to take advantage of amenities added near the rail center and thus it does not add to the desirability of the town nearly as much as the continued improvements in towns that already have nicer features for folks that are looking for a more traditonal town...
Towns like Worth and Alsip really have suffered greatly when it comes to the loss of industrial / logistics employment options. Without other employment to make up for these losses it is difficult to recomend these kinds of towns. A fair amount of industrial / warehouse business has migrated to Bolingbrook and surrounding areas but since these areas also lack rail service / traditonal town center they rarely attract the kinds of workers that have white collar jobs in the Loop. Without this base of higher income professional workers there is not as strong support for educational paths that will lead to more demanding colleges.
It is a hard cycle to deal with. The overall negative economic conditions of Illinois mean that businesses really are avoiding the state. The folks most harmed by this are often those in the kinds of lower skill / labor intensive fields.
The towns of that make up the south / southwest suburbs around Palos and Orland have never been as much an employment center as a traditional residental set of communities. There are plentiful Forest Preserves and for folks that want a more wooded feel these still represent terrific values, unfortunately it is not just changes in taste that have hurt desirability. The factors that have made them less desirable are somewhat driven by shifts in employment -- fewer jobs in places like Oak Brook or other suburban white collar employment centers is a bit of a factor, but a larger factor is reallynthe value shift that comes the development of new suburban areas on what used to be farm fields south / west of Palos & Orland. While there are pockets of custom homes that might be worth updating, the value of an existing tract home in Orland Park is reduced when a similar new home that is newer or can be "built to order" in Homer Glen or Frankfort or Mokena is an alternative. The trade-off of less predicatable taxes and other unknowns that go along with new developements did not deter tens of thousands of folks from making this choice. The pattern of sprawl type suburban expansion has long been known to have negative impacts and folks hit hardest are often those in other developements lacking any special character. Of choice the roll back in prices that comes after boom areas lose their newness has also hurt these areas and with them the older areas nearby. And "older" in this context is generally not going be historic / traditonal just the aging "McMansions" from the previous wave of sprawl. I suppose if you had a budget of $400k it might be worth a look, though the notoriously challenging traffic might give one pause. Even then, if one looks at affordability vs upside potential there are other towns that just have more in their favor...
Fact is I spend a fair amount of time in the south suburbs (I have relatives in Oak Lawn and friends in Orland Park) and feel bad that folks in those areas have had a rocky road with their home valuations. The efforts that would be needed to turn things around are largely out of the control of local officials and need state level to seriously address the basic economic issues that hurt the whole region. Sadly, even if steps are taken to revitalize the economic prospects of the state that won't change the fact that the housing stock in many towns is not particularly charming. The styles and even building materials that are prominent in some towns have not stood the test of time.
How about Alsip, or Worth, or one of the Palos towns?
People on the forum tend to recommend areas that they are familiar with. We used to have a Palos Hills (or one of the other "Palos's") poster on this forum, but he seems to have disappeared. I have to admit that is probably the corner of Chicagoland suburbia that I have the least experience with (Mom is from NW Indiana, most family and friends have lived in West/Northwest/Northern suburbs since the 1950's).
The trend toward increased concentration of employment in the Loop makes towns with good rail service a better choice than towns where rail service is an afterthought / non-existent. Even in areas that the towns are "refocusing" development efforts near their rail stations (Orland Park is one such example) that really does not change the fact that there are a whole more subdivsions / retail strip centers developed during the "car centric era". Nothing wrong with this but it means that most folks in town won't be able to take advantage of amenities added near the rail center and thus it does not add to the desirability of the town nearly as much as the continued improvements in towns that already have nicer features for folks that are looking for a more traditonal town...
Towns like Worth and Alsip really have suffered greatly when it comes to the loss of industrial / logistics employment options. Without other employment to make up for these losses it is difficult to recomend these kinds of towns. A fair amount of industrial / warehouse business has migrated to Bolingbrook and surrounding areas but since these areas also lack rail service / traditonal town center they rarely attract the kinds of workers that have white collar jobs in the Loop. Without this base of higher income professional workers there is not as strong support for educational paths that will lead to more demanding colleges.
It is a hard cycle to deal with. The overall negative economic conditions of Illinois mean that businesses really are avoiding the state. The folks most harmed by this are often those in the kinds of lower skill / labor intensive fields.
The towns of that make up the south / southwest suburbs around Palos and Orland have never been as much an employment center as a traditional residental set of communities. There are plentiful Forest Preserves and for folks that want a more wooded feel these still represent terrific values, unfortunately it is not just changes in taste that have hurt desirability. The factors that have made them less desirable are somewhat driven by shifts in employment -- fewer jobs in places like Oak Brook or other suburban white collar employment centers is a bit of a factor, but a larger factor is reallynthe value shift that comes the development of new suburban areas on what used to be farm fields south / west of Palos & Orland. While there are pockets of custom homes that might be worth updating, the value of an existing tract home in Orland Park is reduced when a similar new home that is newer or can be "built to order" in Homer Glen or Frankfort or Mokena is an alternative. The trade-off of less predicatable taxes and other unknowns that go along with new developements did not deter tens of thousands of folks from making this choice. The pattern of sprawl type suburban expansion has long been known to have negative impacts and folks hit hardest are often those in other developements lacking any special character. Of choice the roll back in prices that comes after boom areas lose their newness has also hurt these areas and with them the older areas nearby. And "older" in this context is generally not going be historic / traditonal just the aging "McMansions" from the previous wave of sprawl. I suppose if you had a budget of $400k it might be worth a look, though the notoriously challenging traffic might give one pause. Even then, if one looks at affordability vs upside potential there are other towns that just have more in their favor...
Fact is I spend a fair amount of time in the south suburbs (I have relatives in Oak Lawn and friends in Orland Park) and feel bad that folks in those areas have had a rocky road with their home valuations. The efforts that would be needed to turn things around are largely out of the control of local officials and need state level to seriously address the basic economic issues that hurt the whole region. Sadly, even if steps are taken to revitalize the economic prospects of the state that won't change the fact that the housing stock in many towns is not particularly charming. The styles and even building materials that are prominent in some towns have not stood the test of time.
Great analysis on the South/Southwest here. Also worth mention is that many of these Southern 'burbs lack the central gathering places, ie downtowns, that many more mature Western and Northern 'burbs have. Central gathering places really break up the monotony of suburban life and create social opportunities.
I do disagree with your comment about Oak Brook though. I think the white-collar job market around Oak Brook, and the entire "Illinois Technology and Research Corridor" (Google it), has been quite stable. And I think the story has been that many small- to medium-sized businesses have been moving out of Chicago and into the Corridor for various economic reasons (DuPage v Cook). That said, I think this has actually been a boon to the West and detriment to the South. Drive around the S/SW and you'll see a glaring lack of corporate office space. Cities like Orland and Palos have functioned as pure bedroom communities for Chi, and with the softening job market there, there has been less reason to take up residence in the area.
Just about the only thing you'll notice driving around the S/SW is brick-and-mortar retail. As far as the eye can see in Orland. And we all know where that is headed.
Wheaton and Glen Ellyn are great alternatives to Naperville if the scale there is too large. One can get lost in Naperville easily. Wheaton and Glen Ellyn both have a more close-knit small-town feel, while still having great schools, amenities, etc. Distance to Westchester is the same as well, and should be able to shop nice houses in your price range.
Last edited by holl1ngsworth; 06-11-2014 at 09:19 AM..
Great analysis on the South/Southwest here. Also worth mention is that many of these Southern 'burbs lack the central gathering places, ie downtowns, that many more mature Western and Northern 'burbs have. Central gathering places really break up the monotony of suburban life and create social opportunities.
I do disagree with your comment about Oak Brook though. I think the white-collar job market around Oak Brook, and the entire "Illinois Technology and Research Corridor" (Google it), has been quite stable. And I think the story has been that many small- to medium-sized businesses have been moving out of Chicago and into the Corridor for various economic reasons (DuPage v Cook). That said, I think this has actually been a boon to the West and detriment to the South. Drive around the S/SW and you'll see a glaring lack of corporate office space. Cities like Orland and Palos have functioned as pure bedroom communities for Chi, and with the softening job market there, there has been less reason to take up residence in the area.
Just about the only thing you'll notice driving around the S/SW is brick-and-mortar retail. As far as the eye can see in Orland. And we all know where that is headed.
My comments about Oak Brook were mostly in relation to the "narrowing" of job options -- not that long ago there were opportunities for folks without college degrees to make a decent living in Oak Brook. I am not just talking about the loss of "support staff" jobs but also areas like "call center", "light industry", and "warehouse". Where once Eastern Airlines had a call center, Xerox refurbished copiers and Kodak warehoused film / chemicals now those sites have data center, office campus and retail respectively...
Obviously, from a residential perspective, Oak Brook was never in the "affordable" category but the loss of the jobs that once were convenient to other towns that are affordable widens the gulf between areas with good schools / high income parents and those area where folks struggle to hold down a mix of part time retail type jobs...
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