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Old 01-28-2015, 07:26 AM
 
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It would be interesting to see U.S. News' "College Readiness Index" adjusted for non-low income students. I think the results would be surprising.

Or perhaps a better measure would be "College Readiness" adjusted for college participation rates?
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl1ngsworth View Post

What are the implications of all this nonsense I'm spewing? If someone is a well-off parent with a stable home, they can probably expect a similar outcome for their little snowflake at any number of high schools. That and tacking extra 000's to the end of a home price to get into that "top" district might not be all it's cracked up to be...
Thanks for compiling these. In an ideal world where we had all the raw data, we would want to perform multivariate analysis to see if it really is the low-income variable that is independently driving the score differential and not some other factor, but we can only work with what we have. I think it pretty effectively illustrates the point that we and others have said in multiple threads... that the poor performance of the bottom X% at a particular school may skew the overall performance even though kids who are anywhere from slightly above excellent to top of their class may have very little academic interaction with these kids. I do agree with what Chet said in a previous post though - a school that has just a few low-income kids can manage these kids without it impacting the rest of the students, whereas a school with 60% low-income kids will have to fundamentally change the way it delivers its education to ALL students including the top ones, even if it isn't reflected in their ISAT/PSAE% .

Ok, now with that being said Hollingsworth, I have to say I don't totally agree with your conclusion in the above quote. And it goes back to what I said before, about ISAT/PSAE% vs. individual student performance. If by "similar outcome", you mean passing the PSAE, then I guess you're right. But within those schools that have similar PSAE% after selecting for non low-income students, there is still a real variation in the % of students that EXCEED expectations rather than just MEETING expectations. We can argue what that translates into in terms of real life achievement, but that is the data we have. So a great PSAE/ISAT% can "hide" students that are doing ok but not great.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by agallan View Post
But within those schools that have similar PSAE% after selecting for non low-income students, there is still a real variation in the % of students that EXCEED expectations rather than just MEETING expectations. We can argue what that translates into in terms of real life achievement, but that is the data we have. So a great PSAE/ISAT% can "hide" students that are doing ok but not great.
The "exceeds" numbers are also reported on the Illinois School Report Card site under the "Performance Levels" menu. I'm not sure if there is a way to see this for low income/non low income... But for the sake of comparison, here are the "exceeds" percentages for some high schools frequently discussed in this forum:

Reading/Math/Science (Grade 11 2014 PSAE "Exceeds Standards" percentages for ALL students)

Whitney Young Magnet: 82/82/92
Hinsdale Central High School: 41/40/44
New Trier Township High School: 37/37/45
Stevenson High School: 36/39/41
Deerfield High School: 32/28/37
Naperville North High School: 32/28/36
Glenbrook North: 31/33/31
Evanston Township High School: 29/26/30
Wheaton North: 27/23/25
Oak Park & River Forest: 27/21/29
Prospect High School 24/23/26
Riverside Brookfield High School: 22/17/25
Wheaton Warrenville South: 18/19/21
St. Charles North: 18/18/20
Lake Park H.S.: 15/13/18
Downers Grove South: 14/14/15
Lincoln Way East: 13/11/15
Carl Sandburg: 13/11/14
Maine East High School: 12/13/14
Homewood-Flossmoor High School: 11/6/11
Rich East: 4/1/3
Frankfort Community: 4/1/2
West Leyden: 3/2/4
Thornton Fractional South: 3/2/2
Morton East: 1/0/0
Proviso East: 0/0/0


That's a pretty big range! And it's really only the very top-tier schools that have above 30% exceeds. THAT would certainly be enough to change the culture of the classrooms--though you have to wonder how many are just below or just above the "exceeds" threshold.

Last edited by Lookout Kid; 01-28-2015 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl1ngsworth View Post
1.) Because I'm assuming you're not a low income parent. That information wouldn't exactly be relevant to your experience.

2.) Low income students are a much less homogeneous crowd, making comparisons more difficult. Think back to Chet's Oak Brook kitchen worker versus Wheaton refugee example.

3.) It's much easier for a school to deal with, say, 40 low-income students (like at Hinsdale Central) than it is to deal with, say, 110 low income students (like at York). Especially when the resources to deal with such students are relatively constant. At schools with an exceedingly low number of low income students, they can probably be expected to perform much better.

You can certainly look at the figures alongside the ones I provided... and they might actually be helpful for a low income family on the move. But there is no reason to call subgroup comparisons deceptive. The only deceptive statistic floated around is cumulative standardized test scores. Comparing cumulative scores assumes normal distributions among schools, and they don't exist in reality. I just wish the ISBE realized that and published the headline numbers differently...

Maybe this will help illustrate the point that I think most folks are missing:
1) But part of my point is that it is relevant even if I am not a low income parent...
2) I would argue that it is the opposite. That the low income group is more homogeneous than the non-low income group. The household bringing in $300k can easily afford a private tutor while I bet the household bringing in $60k couldn't. Both would be considered "non-low income" families. I think the low income group deals with many of the same challenges in making ends meet on a day-to-day basis. I would be surprised if the % of non-English speakers among the low income group varies that significantly within the wealthier areas of the western suburbs.
3) I do agree with this and is why I think the number and performance of the low income group is relevant in this discussion even if you do not fall into that group. More resources spent towards this group means less for everyone else, all else being equal.

I agree that it is deceptive to use the cumulative scores alone but this is a quick and easy way of comparing the overall performance of a number of schools. If you are going to dig deeper and break out the scores into subgroups, I think you should also cite the corresponding subgroup's performance (in this case, low income / non-low income).
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:17 PM
 
162 posts, read 213,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookout Kid View Post
The "exceeds" numbers are also reported on the Illinois School Report Card site under the "Performance Levels" menu. I'm not sure if there is a way to see this for low income/non low income... But for the sake of comparison, here are the "exceeds" percentages for some high schools frequently discussed in this forum:

Reading/Math/Science (Grade 11 2014 PSAE "Exceeds Standards" percentages for ALL students)

Whitney Young Magnet: 82/82/92
Hinsdale Central High School: 41/40/44
New Trier Township High School: 37/37/45
Stevenson High School: 36/39/41
Deerfield High School: 32/28/37
Naperville North High School: 32/28/36
Glenbrook North: 31/33/31
Evanston Township High School: 29/26/30
Wheaton North: 27/23/25
Oak Park & River Forest: 27/21/29
Prospect High School 24/23/26
Riverside Brookfield High School: 22/17/25
Wheaton Warrenville South: 18/19/21
St. Charles North: 18/18/20
Lake Park H.S.: 15/13/18
Downers Grove South: 14/14/15
Lincoln Way East: 13/11/15
Carl Sandburg: 13/11/14
Maine East High School: 12/13/14
Homewood-Flossmoor High School: 11/6/11
Rich East: 4/1/3
Frankfort Community: 4/1/2
West Leyden: 3/2/4
Thornton Fractional South: 3/2/2
Morton East: 1/0/0
Proviso East: 0/0/0


That's a pretty big range! And it's really only the very top-tier schools that have above 30% exceeds. THAT would certainly be enough to change the culture of the classrooms--though you have to wonder how many are just below or just above the "exceeds" threshold.
Awesome! That is a pretty big variation even amongst schools we consider as great. It's not to say that an invididual brilliant kid who goes to an average school can't do as well as if he/she happened to attend Hinsdale Central...but if you believe (like I do) that being pushed academically by your classmates is important than this is really useful data for school quality.

What really surprises me is that Proviso/Leyden/Morton have essentially NO kids exceeding expectations. Obviously I wasn't expecting a high number, but I think it forces us to question the relative contributions of intellectual ability, parenting/social situation, and the quality of the school as it relates to achieving academic success. You have to figure there are some naturally gifted/highly intelligent kids at those schools, and this seems to suggest that they are not doing well. Aside from those in TRUE poverty / scary home situations I always assumed that a fair number of those exceptional types of minds would overcome the limited opportunities they have grown up with. Especially when you consider that the struggles that many of these kids go through (both $, social, and school quality) pale in comparison to a lot of the CPS kids. Interesting...
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:17 PM
 
848 posts, read 641,718 times
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Back to the original topic, I did reach out to Joe Keim based on a suggestion made earlier in this thread, and he said that it would be possible to build a ~2500 sf house with mid-level finishes for ~$400k (excluding land cost) in an area like south Elmhurst. Maybe there is hope after all. Makes a home like this much more interesting...

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Elmhurst/6.../home/18100756
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:28 PM
 
11,972 posts, read 26,872,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agallan View Post
What really surprises me is that Proviso/Leyden/Morton have essentially NO kids exceeding expectations. Obviously I wasn't expecting a high number, but I think it forces us to question the relative contributions of intellectual ability, parenting/social situation, and the quality of the school as it relates to achieving academic success. You have to figure there are some naturally gifted/highly intelligent kids at those schools, and this seems to suggest that they are not doing well.
Yes, I was shocked by this. It attests to the fact that the entire educational experience in those schools is severely "dragged down" by the large underachieving student populations. I was also surprised that this was an issue in even the "good" south suburban schools.
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:29 PM
 
11,972 posts, read 26,872,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Back to the original topic, I did reach out to Joe Keim based on a suggestion made earlier in this thread, and he said that it would be possible to build a ~2500 sf house with mid-level finishes for ~$400k (excluding land cost) in an area like south Elmhurst. Maybe there is hope after all. Makes a home like this much more interesting...

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Elmhurst/6.../home/18100756
Go for it. Few will weep if you tear down that little cottage.
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:52 PM
 
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Thought your budget was $700k? $300 for the current house + $400 for construction + closing costs + teardown costs...

I don't know the market for teardowns well, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't find one for the upper 200's which might get you closer to 700 all in.
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Chicago
3,263 posts, read 4,513,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Back to the original topic, I did reach out to Joe Keim based on a suggestion made earlier in this thread, and he said that it would be possible to build a ~2500 sf house with mid-level finishes for ~$400k (excluding land cost) in an area like south Elmhurst. Maybe there is hope after all. Makes a home like this much more interesting...

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Elmhurst/6.../home/18100756
If you wanted to be closer to downtown, there is a lot available that is only $199,000. I'm actually surprised it hasn't sold. It is north of North Avenue, but only one block west of York, so crossing wouldn't be an issue.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Elmhurst/2.../home/18155324
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