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Old 08-08-2016, 01:36 PM
 
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I really like Downers Grove, I have helped other folks buy nice homes there. I have friends that currently have nice home listed there, as well as several fairly close friends that currently live there and will likely soon be looking to downsize.

The specifics of what makes one town a small notch or two less desirable when considering a big investment are thus kind of tricky to address. What is safe to say is that since towns like CH and Hinsdale have higher valued real estate and households with higher median incomes that more affluent folks are "voting with their wallets". It is further fairly easy to prove that big part of the "increased desirability" is reflected in the superior ratings of the schools districts, both elementary and secondary, that serve the towns. Of course there is a more than a bit of "chicken and egg" at work, as it is hard to deny the link between fewer low income families and higher performing schools, but again the difference is mostly slight and there really are no significant concentrations of lower income families in any part of DG.

When looking at the differences one also cannot help but note that in nearly case in the region the impact that size has favors more compact towns over those that are more spread out when it comes to overall value and desirability. Some of this tautological -- areas that are smaller are by nature more uniform with regards to access to amenities in the core. Beyond that though there is almost certainly as aspect of, to be frank. "exclusivity" -- there are simply a smaller supply of homes in a smaller town and thus that serves to pressure the folks that may be contemplating selling / tearing down an older smaller home. Not to gush, but honestly when we'd take family vacations with the kids either in the midwest or to places like the National Parks and we'd "bump into" other families from our small town it was sort of like being in a "select group" that made it kind of fun for the kids (and grown-ups) to share an unexpected familiar face and that sort of thing is just a little less likely in DG when even very very nice neighborhoods in different parts of towns are served by different schools and such that make it harder to feel a share affinity. Maybe with ubiquitous Social Media that sort of thing is
less a big deal, but perhaps being connected "IRL" is even more important now...

The other factors are even more subjective. For everyone that appreciates the relatively low cost and mostly good value of a public municipal pool in Hinsdale or CH there are probably some folks in DG that are happy not to have any such potentially costly public recreation facilities. Similar sorts of situations arise when comparing the very wide range of nice programs offered through big park districts or libraries in a larger town like Elmhurst or DG against the smaller range of offering in Hinsdale or CH. The offerings in the smaller towns are likely to be a near "universal experience" for kids as they grow up while things in the larger town are more splintered. Really hard to say either experience is truly "better" just that it is decidedly "different" to know that dared near every family in a town like CH has very easy walking / bicycle access to things like the Little League fields and public library while a much smaller percentage of the total residents enjoy such access in the larger towns...

Again, I don't think you can "go wrong" with a nice home in a desirable town if you are confident about you work situation not requiring relocating for an extended period. I really am just trying to lay out the sorts of things that I have encountered both living / working in these areas as well as how neighbors / friends have been impacted. It is not like you'd be setting your investment afire in a nice part of DG, and I could easily see a family that already has put down roots with an older home in DG maybe wanted a larger home / lot being excited at the prospect of getting brand new move-ready home though even in that situation they're likely selling their "starter home" for a handsome profit and plowing that back into the community they've come to appreciate which has some different implications compared to "buying in near a new peak"...
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
What is safe to say is that since towns like CH and Hinsdale have higher valued real estate and households with higher median incomes that more affluent folks are "voting with their wallets"...
I suggest that that phenomenon has some commonality with a stock whose price gets irrationally pushed up. Company XYZ gets some good press and everyone rushes out to buy the stock thinking it's the next AAPL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Have you spent any time exploring Hinsdale? I think your question regarding desirability will be answered quickly after you spend an hour or two strolling around Robbins Park and the surrounding residential neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
Beyond that though there is almost certainly as aspect of, to be frank. "exclusivity" -- there are simply a smaller supply of homes in a smaller town and thus that serves to pressure the folks that may be contemplating selling / tearing down an older smaller home.
And this one I suggest has some commonality with luxury cars. One might say a Lexus is "more desirable" than a fully-loaded Toyota: but are the differences really as great as the price would suggest?

I always hear people say, you get what you pay for, but I don't believe that to be necessarily true at the so-called high end. I think that what you get are increasingly "soft" attributes. Think about what you want when you buy something---anything, not just a house. There are "hard" features you can readily define: e.g. square footage, construction materials, warranty length, etc. And there are "soft" features that may be important to you, e.g. prestige, exclusiveness, uniqueness, etc.

If you look only at the "hard" features, I think there's a linear relationship versus cost, up to a point. That is, you spend 2x, you get twice as many of these hard features. But past that point, it's no longer linear: you spend 10x but you only get a small improvement of hard features. And the only way that increase in price can be justified is by the "soft" features.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
Again, I don't think you can "go wrong" with a nice home in a desirable town if you are confident about you work situation not requiring relocating for an extended period. I really am just trying to lay out the sorts of things that I have encountered both living / working in these areas as well as how neighbors / friends have been impacted...
Thanks Chet for the thoughtful reply.

Funny you mention the physical size of these towns: I'm sure that has something to do with the greater number of very large lots in DG. More space, bigger lots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Also, in general, I always suggest buying near the median price point for the area, which is the case for just under $1MM in Hinsdale but not so much for Downers. Never want to have the nicest/most expensive house on the block IMO.
According to this site, the median sale prices between Hinsdale and DG aren't that different: Hinsdale 2013 median detached house price $363k; Downers Grove $394. Although the estimated median value is $766k for Hinsdale, but only $320k for DG. Perhaps it's actually DG that is exhibiting the "hot stock" phenomenon?

But, yes, I agree with that sentiment. But just from what we've seen in DG, there's no shortage of $1mm homes +/- $150k, so I don't think they can be fairly categorized as the "nicest/most expensive" homes in the town.

For us, top priority is the house itself, since we spend the overwhelming majority of our time there. Lot size is also significantly important to us... fact of the matter is, to get everything we want (the "hard" features I talked about above) in Hinsdale is above our budget. That is: 3000ish SF, 60x200 lot, half-mile or less to train, new (or newish) construction: not happening in Hinsdale for $1mm or less. So it's hard for me to conceive of what we might get from the town itself, if we compromise on those key features. "Just have to see it" doesn't help me. But Chet hinted at what some of those tradeoffs would be (walkable town amenities, exclusivity, uniform "town experience", etc).

I'll also note, something we've noticed in every town except DG: big lots have too-big houses. From what we've seen, a 60x200 lot is not uncommon in DG---we've seen plenty of those lots with 3000-3500 square foot homes, which is right in our sweet spot for size. In other towns, the bigger lots are unusual, so they typically have a "matching" house that is 4500-6000 SF, which is way too big for us (don't need it, don't want to clean and heat/cool it). So I'm going to suggest that the "profile" of the house+lot we want probably doesn't even exist in Hinsdale, at any price.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ConcreteRooster View Post
But just from what we've seen in DG, there's no shortage of $1mm homes +/- $150k, so I don't think they can be fairly categorized as the "nicest/most expensive" homes in the town.

For us, top priority is the house itself, since we spend the overwhelming majority of our time there. Lot size is also significantly important to us... fact of the matter is, to get everything we want (the "hard" features I talked about above) in Hinsdale is above our budget. That is: 3000ish SF, 60x200 lot, half-mile or less to train, new (or newish) construction: not happening in Hinsdale for $1mm or less. So it's hard for me to conceive of what we might get from the town itself, if we compromise on those key features. "Just have to see it" doesn't help me. But Chet hinted at what some of those tradeoffs would be (walkable town amenities, exclusivity, uniform "town experience", etc).

I'll also note, something we've noticed in every town except DG: big lots have too-big houses. From what we've seen, a 60x200 lot is not uncommon in DG---we've seen plenty of those lots with 3000-3500 square foot homes, which is right in our sweet spot for size. In other towns, the bigger lots are unusual, so they typically have a "matching" house that is 4500-6000 SF, which is way too big for us (don't need it, don't want to clean and heat/cool it). So I'm going to suggest that the "profile" of the house+lot we want probably doesn't even exist in Hinsdale, at any price.
I'd agree - you won't find a newer construction, 3000 sq. ft. house in Hinsdale with a 60 x 220 lot within a mile of the train for under 750K, maybe for 1MM. Well, you might, but there would certainly be trade offs.

When I originally started looking in DG, I was set on being near the Main street area, but the lots were small and the homes much older (and not as well taken care of). There were some new construction homes, but most were updated older homes (which I prefer, but the prices were outrageous).

Near the Belmont stop -- and by this I mean in the Pierce Downer school district, and not directly abutting Ogden Ave -- there is a slew of newer homes and nearly everyone takes great care of their property. Yes, there are some areas of DG that are poorer, but that specific neighborhood would be hard to pass up. If you plan on staying for some time, the investment makes sense.

The thing I like most about this neighborhood is that no one cares I bought the 350K house, didn't tear it down, and am renovating it on my own. My older, smaller home, is not out of step with the new construction. It's a cohesive neighborhood.

That said, I'd be much more comfortable buying a home in that area for 800K as opposed to 1MM.

As such:

4713 Seeley Ave, Downers Grove, IL 60515 | MLS #09293350 | Zillow

4455 Stonewall Ave, Downers Grove, IL 60515 | MLS #09304380 | Zillow

4931 Cornell Ave, Downers Grove, IL 60515 | MLS #09255582 | Zillow

But if the money isn't an issue, then this is a great home, as you have indicated:

4907 Woodward Ave, Downers Grove, IL 60515 | MLS #09294226 | Zillow
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcreteRooster View Post
According to this site, the median sale prices between Hinsdale and DG aren't that different: Hinsdale 2013 median detached house price $363k; Downers Grove $394. Although the estimated median value is $766k for Hinsdale, but only $320k for DG. Perhaps it's actually DG that is exhibiting the "hot stock" phenomenon?

But, yes, I agree with that sentiment. But just from what we've seen in DG, there's no shortage of $1mm homes +/- $150k, so I don't think they can be fairly categorized as the "nicest/most expensive" homes in the town.
Let me just start by saying I like Downers Grove and believe it offers superb value relative to many Chicagoland suburbs. That is clear from my past posts - in fact, some have said that I will end up moving there in a few years when we look to upsize because of how complimentary I am towards it. Ok, now to address a few of your comments...I don't see the $363k price you are quoting for Hinsdale. If this is shown somewhere it is inaccurate. Here are current median home sale prices for both towns:

Real Estate Overview for Hinsdale, IL - Trulia

Real Estate Overview for Downers Grove, IL - Trulia

My point is buying a home for $900k+ aligns much better with median home sales in Hinsdale than in Downers Grove and, as a result, carries less risk when you turn around to sell in the future. Looking at Zillow home values, 9 of the 14 homes are shown with a value exceeding $1MM on the block of the Grant Street home in Hinsdale (between 8th and 9th Street). Compare this to 0 of 38 homes exceeding $1MM value on the block of the Woodward Ave home in Downers Grove (between Warren and Prairie) and 0 homes exceeding $900k value with the exception of the home you are interested in. It doesn't mean this is a bad neighborhood by any means but to me, that's buying the nicest/most expensive home on the block. Personally, that would concern me. If this isn't a concern to you, then please disregard but I feel it is worth noting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConcreteRooster View Post
For us, top priority is the house itself, since we spend the overwhelming majority of our time there. Lot size is also significantly important to us... fact of the matter is, to get everything we want (the "hard" features I talked about above) in Hinsdale is above our budget. That is: 3000ish SF, 60x200 lot, half-mile or less to train, new (or newish) construction: not happening in Hinsdale for $1mm or less. So it's hard for me to conceive of what we might get from the town itself, if we compromise on those key features. "Just have to see it" doesn't help me. But Chet hinted at what some of those tradeoffs would be (walkable town amenities, exclusivity, uniform "town experience", etc).
I won't disagree that you will have a hard (i.e. impossible) time finding that lot size for under $1MM in Hinsdale given the other conditions you listed but this home meets all of your requirements except the 1/4 acre lot size:

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Hinsdale/2.../home/18021592

It's a 10 minute walk to Robbins Park as well so that serves as a potential trade-off on the smaller lot size.

In terms of your other question regarding why is Hinsdale more expensive/desirable, I don't think there is any one differentiating factor but rather a number of factors that slightly favor Hinsdale which add up incrementally (schools, crime, location, compactness, affluency, well-established, etc). Whether or not you deem those factors as worthy of the additional price tag is personal preference but there is a reason real estate in Hinsdale has historically been more expensive than the surrounding western suburbs.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
I won't disagree that you will have a hard (i.e. impossible) time finding that lot size for under $1MM in Hinsdale given the other conditions you listed but this home meets all of your requirements except the 1/4 acre lot size:

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Hinsdale/2.../home/18021592

It's a 10 minute walk to Robbins Park as well so that serves as a potential trade-off on the smaller lot size.

In terms of your other question regarding why is Hinsdale more expensive/desirable, I don't think there is any one differentiating factor but rather a number of factors that slightly favor Hinsdale which add up incrementally (schools, crime, location, compactness, affluency, well-established, etc). Whether or not you deem those factors as worthy of the additional price tag is personal preference but there is a reason real estate in Hinsdale has historically been more expensive than the surrounding western suburbs.
I know that very block, and it can get rather busy from being right next to the swimming pool. The train noise is also significant right there as well. That home is priced at "only" 875K due to these rather large trade offs. It's also further from the downtown train stop than the Western Hinsdale stop, which although does receive a few express trains, has very limited service compared to downtown Hinsdale.

I totally agree that checking all of the boxes off in Hinsdale is easily a 1MM+ venture. This post, My Kind of Town, is right on.

I still think that there are a lot of good homes in Downers Grove for below 800K, or there are homes on the market for 900+ that might come down 10% with the right offer.

Perhaps comparing Downers to Hinsdale is akin to a comparison of a Porsche and a loaded Honda. It's not the difference between a Porsche and a late model Kia.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:41 PM
 
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I know that very block, and it can get rather busy from being right next to the swimming pool. The train noise is also significant right there as well. That home is priced at "only" 875K due to these rather large trade offs. It's also further from the downtown train stop than the Western Hinsdale stop, which although does receive a few express trains, has very limited service compared to downtown Hinsdale.

I totally agree that checking all of the boxes off in Hinsdale is easily a 1MM+ venture. This post, My Kind of Town, is right on.

I still think that there are a lot of good homes in Downers Grove for below 800K, or there are homes on the market for 900+ that might come down 10% with the right offer.

Perhaps comparing Downers to Hinsdale is akin to a comparison of a Porsche and a loaded Honda. It's not the difference between a Porsche and a late model Kia.
Understood but to be fair the Woodward home also experiences significant train noise as it is a comparable distance away from the tracks as the Monroe home (~400' vs. ~750'). I guess that's something one has to deal with if they want to be so close to Metra! Having lived near trains in the past, I would prefer to maintain 1500'+. The walk from the Monroe home to the downtown Hinsdale station is shown as 13 min while the walk to the West Hinsdale station is 9 min. This compares favorably with the Woodward home/Belmont station setup.

I just think it is silly to check off Hinsdale if you have a budget of near $1MM. Based on previous posts, it doesn't appear OP has even visited or considered Hinsdale and I feel that is a mistake. Also, I would strongly consider towns like Western Springs and Clarendon Hills at that price point, which I believe fit more into the Lexus range when using the Porsche/loaded Honda analogy. I really like Western Springs for a young, growing family.
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Old 08-09-2016, 03:18 PM
 
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Default Heartily agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Understood but to be fair the Woodward home also experiences significant train noise as it is a comparable distance away from the tracks as the Monroe home (~400' vs. ~750'). I guess that's something one has to deal with if they want to be so close to Metra! Having lived near trains in the past, I would prefer to maintain 1500'+. The walk from the Monroe home to the downtown Hinsdale station is shown as 13 min while the walk to the West Hinsdale station is 9 min. This compares favorably with the Woodward home/Belmont station setup.

I just think it is silly to check off Hinsdale if you have a budget of near $1MM. Based on previous posts, it doesn't appear OP has even visited or considered Hinsdale and I feel that is a mistake. Also, I would strongly consider towns like Western Springs and Clarendon Hills at that price point, which I believe fit more into the Lexus range when using the Porsche/loaded Honda analogy. I really like Western Springs for a young, growing family.
All three , WS, Hinsdale, and CH, also have things very desirable to "young growing families" like walkable schools, a community swimming pool, and easily accessible library.

I would also caution that one really should use the filters to remove the condos and townhouses when comparing median home sales across towns -- Hinsdale in particular get artificially "bumped down" by the sales of such things.

The analysis against "buying the most costly home" in specific areas that are on the border of schools attendance areas almost certainly plays into why the subject home has spent a longer than usual time on the market...
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
I don't see the $363k price you are quoting for Hinsdale. If this is shown somewhere it is inaccurate. Here are current median home sale prices for both towns:
I was surprised to see that too; I got those numbers from this site itself. In both cases, scroll down just a bit to see the quoted text.

City-Data.com Hinsdale, Illinois:

Quote:
Estimated median house or condo value in 2013: $765,890 (it was $489,900 in 2000)

Mean prices in 2013: All housing units: $321,241; Detached houses: $362,860; Townhouses or other attached units: $206,219; In 2-unit structures: $181,874; In 3-to-4-unit structures: $140,378; In 5-or-more-unit structures: $136,658; Mobile homes: $44,212

City-Data.com Downers Grove, Illinois:

Quote:
Estimated median house or condo value in 2013: $319,878 (it was $195,900 in 2000)

Mean prices in 2013: All housing units: $345,033; Detached houses: $394,374; Townhouses or other attached units: $222,205; In 3-to-4-unit structures: $222,654; In 5-or-more-unit structures: $138,484

Could be bad/inaccurate data of course. Note it's also from 2013.

My intuition says the data is probably wrong or somehow skewed.

As for distance to the train being a negative due to noise: that's a worthwhile consideration. Although, right now, we're quite literally a stone's throw away from: the UPNW Metra, the CTA Blue Line, and the 90/94 Interstate. The highway is actually the loudest of all three. So I think just about anything will be an improvement. (Actually, train and road noise doesn't really bother me, what bothers me is my extremely discourteous neighbors who like to throw loud parties in their parking lot... on Sunday nights.)

On the other hand, that's another motivation for us getting a lot (or teardown) and doing a custom build. If we go this route, I'm going for a high performance/energy efficient build. This kind of construction is tightly sealed and super-insulated, and has fancypants windows. Besides the obvious thermal benefits, a side benefit is noise insulation as well.


Anyway, Downers remains for us the top pick, but we will give some of the other named burbs a taste-test.


Thanks again for all the feedback everyone!
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ConcreteRooster View Post
I was surprised to see that too; I got those numbers from this site itself. In both cases, scroll down just a bit to see the quoted text.

City-Data.com Hinsdale, Illinois:




City-Data.com Downers Grove, Illinois:




Could be bad/inaccurate data of course. Note it's also from 2013.

My intuition says the data is probably wrong or somehow skewed.

As for distance to the train being a negative due to noise: that's a worthwhile consideration. Although, right now, we're quite literally a stone's throw away from: the UPNW Metra, the CTA Blue Line, and the 90/94 Interstate. The highway is actually the loudest of all three. So I think just about anything will be an improvement. (Actually, train and road noise doesn't really bother me, what bothers me is my extremely discourteous neighbors who like to throw loud parties in their parking lot... on Sunday nights.)

On the other hand, that's another motivation for us getting a lot (or teardown) and doing a custom build. If we go this route, I'm going for a high performance/energy efficient build. This kind of construction is tightly sealed and super-insulated, and has fancypants windows. Besides the obvious thermal benefits, a side benefit is noise insulation as well.


Anyway, Downers remains for us the top pick, but we will give some of the other named burbs a taste-test.


Thanks again for all the feedback everyone!
Yea doesn't make sense unless Hinsdale has seen home values nearly double in the last 3 years, which certainly is not the case(I wish it was!).

I have lived near trains and roadways in the past and I will take road noise over train noise any day assuming you aren't living right next door to a busy road. I live a few blocks from an expressway right now and it isn't an issue because the noise walls installed along the outside of the roadway drown out much of the noise (the rest is white noise to me). Whereas, when I lived ~500' from a Metra line I hated it. The train noise was louder and much more sudden. I couldn't sleep with the windows open, which was dreadful.

Anyways, here's another that fits your requirements with the exception of the big lot again. New build, 3500 sf, fantastic neighborhood/location and schools, and 10 minute walk to Western Springs metra station and downtown area.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Western-Sp.../home/14058876
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by My Kind Of Town View Post
Yea doesn't make sense unless Hinsdale has seen home values nearly double in the last 3 years, which certainly is not the case(I wish it was!).

I have lived near trains and roadways in the past and I will take road noise over train noise any day assuming you aren't living right next door to a busy road. I live a few blocks from an expressway right now and it isn't an issue because the noise walls installed along the outside of the roadway drown out much of the noise (the rest is white noise to me). Whereas, when I lived ~500' from a Metra line I hated it. The train noise was louder and much more sudden. I couldn't sleep with the windows open, which was dreadful.

Anyways, here's another that fits your requirements with the exception of the big lot again. New build, 3500 sf, fantastic neighborhood/location and schools, and 10 minute walk to Western Springs metra station and downtown area.

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Western-Sp.../home/14058876
Totally agreed about the Metra, but it's really subjective.

That house on Johnson is a tiny corner lot, and on a major street (without a real significant setback). Not to mention it's also very close to another major street, which will increase traffic back ups and noise. I'd be wary of spending 900K on any major street unless there was a big lot and some remove from the traffic.

I think it still comes down to the fact that, for what the OP wants, with a budget of circa 900K, Hinsdale, Clarendon Hills, Western Springs, are going to have big trade offs. Downers, Elmhurst (to an extent), and Glen Ellyn will offer more property and house for the money.
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