Suburbia, the next slum? (Chicago, Oak Park: insurance, high school, college)
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Neighborhood elemantry schools are like community politics. It is the most local level. And the the k-8 which do well are in some of the best areas of the city, the price tag comes with it. High schools will always be chicagos draw back. Schools and crime (even on a petty level) will always be the reason that folks of all income levels flock to suburbia, autocentric as it may be.
You don't disagree, you misunderstand. If the middle and upper middle and upper middle classes started moving in large numbers to urban neighborhoods with presently underperforming schools, those schools would drastically improve for that reason alone. Of course, in real life, thus far anyway, these families are reluctant to do that because they don't want to be the first, as you stated. As Lookout points out, it has happened in a few neighborhoods, and, hopefully, it will happen in more.
Put in the most simple terms, I'd bet you $1 million that if I took New Trier's student body and put it at Proviso East for a year, that school's ISAT score would dramatically increase, even changing absolutely nothing else (same teachers, same buildings, same funding levels, same textbooks, etc.).
No i get what you are saying, but what you are proposing is merley a hypothetical situation which is highly unlikely to happen. Id look to your last paragraph as example. Do you really think you could convice those who live in the New Trier district to even consider moving into the proviso district? People don't sprout up from the ground, you have to convice people with children that an area is worth investing in in order for the schools to improve. Investing in your childs education in saftey is a lot different than investing in a rental or rehabed property.
No i get what you are saying, but what you are proposing is merley a hypothetical situation which is highly unlikely to happen. Id look to your last paragraph as example. Do you really think you could convice those who live in the New Trier district to even consider moving into the proviso district? People don't sprout up from the ground, you have to convice people with children that an area is worth investing in in order for the schools to improve. Investing in your childs education in saftey is a lot different than investing in a rental or rehabed property.
You're thinking very literally. Of course it would be next to impossible to get kids from New Trier to go to Proviso East.
As an educator (and I think BRU is too?) I can tell you that school test scores, rankings, ratings, etc..are purely a product of the students who happen to go there.
I don't know what some people or parents seem to think that the key to success in their child's education is the school itself. In fact, it is parental involvement and dedication to the curriculum. This is obvious.
The fact is that teaching methods have improved by leaps and bounds over the last half century. Having taught in Joliet, I have seen this myself. People assume that since Joliet 86 performs woefully bad, it has to be the teachers. I can tell you that the people heading the classrooms are EXCELLENT. The problem is the kids and their parents. They'd rather not take advantage of their curriculum and excellent teachers. Therefore, test scores and student skills languish.
Anyways, my main point is that BRU is 100% correct. Wealthy, or even upper middle class people care about education a lot and will go to great lengths to get on their kids' back to do well in school.
If you had a reverse population flight from the suburbs to the city, you'd hear less and less about the problems with CPS underperforming.
I just don't see this happening though. I thought that super expensive gas might push young folks here, but I wonder about the suburban family type people. People have come to expect the sprawling lifestyle and are unwilling to give it up. Unless you have some type of impossible situation where people with money move into the farther south side (places like Englewood, Roseland, etc.) that have slightly larger lot sizes, it's going to be more of the same.
You're thinking very literally. Of course it would be next to impossible to get kids from New Trier to go to Proviso East.
As an educator (and I think BRU is too?) I can tell you that school test scores, rankings, ratings, etc..are purely a product of the students who happen to go there.
I don't know what some people or parents seem to think that the key to success in their child's education is the school itself. In fact, it is parental involvement and dedication to the curriculum. This is obvious.
The fact is that teaching methods have improved by leaps and bounds over the last half century. Having taught in Joliet, I have seen this myself. People assume that since Joliet 86 performs woefully bad, it has to be the teachers. I can tell you that the people heading the classrooms are EXCELLENT. The problem is the kids and their parents. They'd rather not take advantage of their curriculum and excellent teachers. Therefore, test scores and student skills languish.
Anyways, my main point is that BRU is 100% correct. Wealthy, or even upper middle class people care about education a lot and will go to great lengths to get on their kids' back to do well in school.
If you had a reverse population flight from the suburbs to the city, you'd hear less and less about the problems with CPS underperforming.
I just don't see this happening though. I thought that super expensive gas might push young folks here, but I wonder about the suburban family type people. People have come to expect the sprawling lifestyle and are unwilling to give it up. Unless you have some type of impossible situation where people with money move into the farther south side (places like Englewood, Roseland, etc.) that have slightly larger lot sizes, it's going to be more of the same.
I tend to agree somewhat that the student and parents make the child, but schools play a huge role as well, as they bring students from like minded demographics together for the purpose of educating them.
Take for example my education, my parents knew, that even in the North shore suburbs, the quality of education was lacking. Too many kids doing drugs and other such problems. Issues with teachers and the unions that protect them. So I was sent to a school back east that was very selective (my dad went there) and was designed on the typical college prep cirriculum.
Where I went to school, there was no time for kids to screw up. In between school and activities and an uber controlled enviornment, kids simply had no time. Hell, simply scoring pot from a townie or booze from a wino or stew-bum was seen as amazing feat. The only way you got to bring a girl to a room was by smuggling her in (I used my hockey bag) This was the type of school where it wasn't just 90% of the kids going to a 4 year college. It was 90% of the kids going to the top 100 schools in the country. I wound up going to Georgetown, much lower on the totum pole.
People with money care about their children's education, but they are much more likey to ensure their children are in a proper enviornment, and often many feel CPS simply does not provide that. Especially for middle income families who fall in the 60-90k a year income bracket. Its much easier to move to a suburb 15-20 miles out, 45 minutes to an hour from the loop via metra, and own a decent sized home, in a city with low crime, and public schools with low drop out rates that prepare kids for college level work.
You're thinking very literally. Of course it would be next to impossible to get kids from New Trier to go to Proviso East.
As an educator (and I think BRU is too?) I can tell you that school test scores, rankings, ratings, etc..are purely a product of the students who happen to go there.
I don't know what some people or parents seem to think that the key to success in their child's education is the school itself. In fact, it is parental involvement and dedication to the curriculum. This is obvious.
The fact is that teaching methods have improved by leaps and bounds over the last half century. Having taught in Joliet, I have seen this myself. People assume that since Joliet 86 performs woefully bad, it has to be the teachers. I can tell you that the people heading the classrooms are EXCELLENT. The problem is the kids and their parents. They'd rather not take advantage of their curriculum and excellent teachers. Therefore, test scores and student skills languish.
Anyways, my main point is that BRU is 100% correct. Wealthy, or even upper middle class people care about education a lot and will go to great lengths to get on their kids' back to do well in school.
If you had a reverse population flight from the suburbs to the city, you'd hear less and less about the problems with CPS underperforming.
I just don't see this happening though. I thought that super expensive gas might push young folks here, but I wonder about the suburban family type people. People have come to expect the sprawling lifestyle and are unwilling to give it up. Unless you have some type of impossible situation where people with money move into the farther south side (places like Englewood, Roseland, etc.) that have slightly larger lot sizes, it's going to be more of the same.
The sprawling lifestyle just keeps getting more and more expensive and it is not just the gas prices. They may have no choice in the matter to give it up especially in today's economy with all those foreclosures happening in the the sprawling McMansion areas. Alot of these folks are now drowning in debt big time. It is unfortunate but it is the cold hard truth. My husband and I are considered middle class and we simply cannot afford the sprawling life style and we have no kids to raise. We have to watch our pennies.
I agree with you on this. If you can create a challenging curriculum and bring in the students to study it, there will be a good amount of success. Your own example is true. The college prep boarding schools out east will definitely prepare students for the most challenging college curriculums.
And, as far as the curriculum goes, it is a joke in many districts. You could easily take students from a suburb such as..Plainfield and throw them into CPS to see massive amounts of success. Not because Plainfield's curriculum is 1000x better, (Only 71% of Plainfield North's kids are meeting or exceeding) but because the kids and parents care just a little bit more.
I mean, you have to wonder what the heck is going on at schools like Percy Julian on the southside (Washington Heights). Only 17% are meeting or exceeding standards. Is this because the CPS curriculum is tough? No. It's because the kids and parents don't value education there.
You take away that element and replace it with some suburban familes- you'll have at least 'average kids' who at least go to 'average colleges'. And after some time, the curriculum will have a chance to be improved.
But, none of this can happen. Right now CPS is going to be stuck in an infinite loop of crapiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeShoreSoxGo
I tend to agree somewhat that the student and parents make the child, but schools play a huge role as well, as they bring students from like minded demographics together for the purpose of educating them.
Take for example my education, my parents knew, that even in the North shore suburbs, the quality of education was lacking. Too many kids doing drugs and other such problems. Issues with teachers and the unions that protect them. So I was sent to a school back east that was very selective (my dad went there) and was designed on the typical college prep cirriculum.
Where I went to school, there was no time for kids to screw up. In between school and activities and an uber controlled enviornment, kids simply had no time. Hell, simply scoring pot from a townie or booze from a wino or stew-bum was seen as amazing feat. The only way you got to bring a girl to a room was by smuggling her in (I used my hockey bag) This was the type of school where it wasn't just 90% of the kids going to a 4 year college. It was 90% of the kids going to the top 100 schools in the country. I wound up going to Georgetown, much lower on the totum pole.
People with money care about their children's education, but they are much more likey to ensure their children are in a proper enviornment, and often many feel CPS simply does not provide that. Especially for middle income families who fall in the 60-90k a year income bracket. Its much easier to move to a suburb 15-20 miles out, 45 minutes to an hour from the loop via metra, and own a decent sized home, in a city with low crime, and public schools with low drop out rates that prepare kids for college level work.
The sprawling lifestyle just keeps getting more and more expensive and it is not just the gas prices. They may have no choice in the matter to give it up especially in today's economy with all those foreclosures happening in the the sprawling McMansion areas. Alot of these folks are now drowning in debt big time. It is unfortunate but it is the cold hard truth. My husband and I are considered middle class and we simply cannot afford the sprawling life style and we have no kids to raise. We have to watch our pennies.
No doubt. I didn't mean to confuse anyone and try to equate sprawling with cheap. I think the Chicagoland area is expensive in itself; however, there are (or were) plenty of cheap deals to be had. My parents are lucky enough to work similar schedules and have offices within 5 minutes of each other. That means they can take 1 car to work. This alone cuts the maintenance, gas, insurance and other costs associated with an automobile out of the picture.
It seems that the two and three car needs have dominated the sprawling suburban lifestyle. This is yet another reason these types of people would have a hard time coming back into the urban center. Where I live isn't particularly dense, but I have a hard enough time finding parking for just my one car. I couldn't imagine trying to find space for two or three. And renting a garage? Forget about it. That's just another cost to eat.
I do feel for you though. My parents purchased their home at the height of the bubble and paid $317K. Now, there are foreclosures around them and their value is only $290K. It's not as dramatic as some other areas, but it is heart wrenching to lose $17K in value in the matter of 36 months.
Schools play a big role, but not necessarily in the way you might think. The poorest performing kids need the most resources to do well, at least in large part because the school effectively has to “fill in” for the parent. These kids should have much more intensive pre-school education, longer school days, and even school during the summer. Sometimes they have language barriers that have to be overcome, and quickly if we expect them to keep pace with even the U.S. average by high school. That costs money. To go back to my New Trier hypothetical, the Proviso kids would probably do much better if they had the resources available to the New Trier district (though they’d obviously have to be applied in a different fashion).
Unfortunately, since their school funding comes from the economically depressed areas they live in, they’re in big trouble. And as a consequence, so are we. It may be hard to grasp this if you live in an isolated all-white suburb but today’s low income people (particularly Hispanics) are going to be the majority of our workforce in 25-30 years. China and India will start running circles around us in the global economy unless we do something. We’ll be the ones making the plastic disposable consumer goods, LOL!
I do think there will be a back to the city movement and also believe exburbia’s days are numbered, which wouldn’t be a bad thing at all for the health of our society as a whole. The Mannheim Madman is disappointed that high gas prices didn’t open the floodgates but, jeez guys, gas prices have only been high for 3 years now, and started to go up at the beginning of the worst real estate market in recent memory. And I wouldn’t even call today’s gas prices high. $2.50/gallon is still dirt cheap compared to most places in the world. When they’re $5-7/gallon like in most other places, come and talk to me.
I don't think our government is smart (or brave?) enough raise fuel prices to discourage our rampant consumption. However, demand for oil in China and India will probably take care of that for us. I also think other trends, such as less consumer spending, may encourage more walkable lifestyles and smaller homes. Those may be dictated by slower wage growth and higher unemployment rates, that many think are here to stay.
You bring up a good point that I totally forgot about. In many schools that have a high Hispanic population, the biggest issue is the language barrier. However, I have found that once educators can get a firm grasp on eliminating that barrier, the success comes. I have seen some pretty darn efficient bi-lingual programs that satisfy my expectation.
I will say that a lack of success in many areas is indeed a cultural thing, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRU67
Schools play a big role, but not necessarily in the way you might think. The poorest performing kids need the most resources to do well, at least in large part because the school effectively has to “fill in” for the parent. These kids should have much more intensive pre-school education, longer school days, and even school during the summer. Sometimes they have language barriers that have to be overcome, and quickly if we expect them to keep pace with even the U.S. average by high school. That costs money. To go back to my New Trier hypothetical, the Proviso kids would probably do much better if they had the resources available to the New Trier district (though they’d obviously have to be applied in a different fashion).
Unfortunately, since their school funding comes from the economically depressed areas they live in, they’re in big trouble. And as a consequence, so are we. It may be hard to grasp this if you live in an isolated all-white suburb but today’s low income people (particularly Hispanics) are going to be the majority of our workforce in 25-30 years. China and India will start running circles around us in the global economy unless we do something. We’ll be the ones making the plastic disposable consumer goods, LOL!
I do think there will be a back to the city movement and also believe exburbia’s days are numbered, which wouldn’t be a bad thing at all for the health of our society as a whole. The Mannheim Madman is disappointed that high gas prices didn’t open the floodgates but, jeez guys, gas prices have only been high for 3 years now, and started to go up at the beginning of the worst real estate market in recent memory. And I wouldn’t even call today’s gas prices high. $2.50/gallon is still dirt cheap compared to most places in the world. When they’re $5-7/gallon like in most other places, come and talk to me.
I don't think our government is smart (or brave?) enough raise fuel prices to discourage our rampant consumption. However, demand for oil in China and India will probably take care of that for us. I also think other trends, such as less consumer spending, may encourage more walkable lifestyles and smaller homes. Those may be dictated by slower wage growth and higher unemployment rates, that many think are here to stay.
I agree with you on this. If you can create a challenging curriculum and bring in the students to study it, there will be a good amount of success. Your own example is true. The college prep boarding schools out east will definitely prepare students for the most challenging college curriculums.
And, as far as the curriculum goes, it is a joke in many districts. You could easily take students from a suburb such as..Plainfield and throw them into CPS to see massive amounts of success. Not because Plainfield's curriculum is 1000x better, (Only 71% of Plainfield North's kids are meeting or exceeding) but because the kids and parents care just a little bit more.
I mean, you have to wonder what the heck is going on at schools like Percy Julian on the southside (Washington Heights). Only 17% are meeting or exceeding standards. Is this because the CPS curriculum is tough? No. It's because the kids and parents don't value education there.
You take away that element and replace it with some suburban familes- you'll have at least 'average kids' who at least go to 'average colleges'. And after some time, the curriculum will have a chance to be improved.
But, none of this can happen. Right now CPS is going to be stuck in an infinite loop of crapiness.
Yeah I agree with you about the schools being in a hot place below in a handbasket and it's not just the CPS but in big city school districts all over the country. The schools need revamping big time in order to draw the families with children back to the cities. It used to be that the Catholic schools were viable alternatives for the blue collar Joe families . However tuition had gotten so high that they could no longer afford them and they were forced to move and abandon the city neighborhoods and plus not to mention the closure of many Catholic schools. Meanwhile as they settled into the more sprawling suburban/exurban life they found there bank accounts getting more depleted in order to keep up with their expenses. In this situation with the city schools being in such bad shape no one wins - not the lower income minority children in the city schools where getting a good quality education is very difficult nor the white and middle class children in the outer suburbs or exurbs whose their parents are constantly worrying about being in deep debt.
Last edited by otters21; 12-17-2009 at 09:46 AM..
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