Suburbia, the next slum? (Naperville, Orland Park: closing, gangs, safe)

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

That is a dumb comment. I would guess you work in public education - correct?

It's a largely true comment. Of course the schools matter too, but test scores often reflect the demographics of the student base more than anything else. But a good education is certainly more than test scores.

[cubssoxfan]

Originally Posted by Guineas

That's some circular logic you got there.

I agree with others, there's no such thing as a crappy school, just crappy students. The reason why charter schools are successful is because they select for students (and their parents) who want to do well and kick out those who cause trouble.

It's obscene what some of the homes cost in the north suburbs just because of the perceived quality of the schools. Those students would have done just as well (if not better from character building) anywhere else.

So if we send New Trier Students to the crappiest CPS high school, they will do just as well? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
You are missing the environment issues of having 2 (usually) involved parents, high standards expected from the parents, peers and teachers, a safe neighborhood and a safe school environment. You are also getting (probably) a better group of teachers.
So the quality of the education is better (not perceived )and the quality of the environment is typically better

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by cubssoxfan

So if we send New Trier Students to the crappiest CPS high school, they will do just as well? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

With just one student, you are definitely right. But I firmly believe that if you took the entire student body of New Trier and swapped it with the entire student body of the "crappiest" CPS High School--and left the same teachers, administrators, and curriculum in place--that formerly crappy CPS school would become one of the best in short order, and New Trier would quickly deteriorate into chaos, the teachers would give up hope, and gang tensions would interupt the school day.

[Humboldt1]

Lookout,

You are at risk of bringing up the genetic along with environmental differences between the parents and kids in these schools.

Schools are only as crappy as the parents and students. CPS spends more on their kids than Naperville and who does better? We all know that what Meeks did at New Trier was a stunt.

A lot of the New Trier kids placed in a crappy CPS school would continue extracurricular activities apart from the school and take more classes when not challenged by inept CPS administrators and teachers.

The New Trier teachers would soon be overwhelmed by a student body from CPS that is half literate and violent. They would become babysitters at best.

Change starts at home, not the schools. Until we flush out the ghetto culture so prevalenbt in south and west side communities there is little hope (one of the not for profit boards I am on has 89 percent of their after school programs for blacks and only 9 percent for hispanics and 2 percent white (includes asians, arabs, etc). And this is in a city that is third white, black, and hispanic.

Blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics are not getting it done at home and are blaming the schools for their problems and anyone else that can be blamed other than the bad parents themselves. This should not be surprising given the culture of entitlement that we as a society have created for poor people.

[cubssoxfan]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

With just one student, you are definitely right. But I firmly believe that if you took the entire student body of New Trier and swapped it with the entire student body of the "crappiest" CPS High School--and left the same teachers, administrators, and curriculum in place--that formerly crappy CPS school would become one of the best in short order, and New Trier would quickly deteriorate into chaos, the teachers would give up hope, and gang tensions would interupt the school day.

I was going to start my post by saying that but then changed my mind because of my belief in how much environment (parents, neighborhood, peers, safety) contributes. If the CPS students commute every day, yes some of them will do better, but many will still struggle. If they could change their neighborhood and be assured of involved parents with high expectations with the will, tact & skill to enforce expectations and transform their peer group into like minded, motivated, academic oriented students then yes.
I will say this; I have utmost respect for the kid from a crappy neighborhood who succeeds academically. I think s/he overcomes many more obstacles than the NT student.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Lookout,

You are at risk of bringing up the genetic along with environmental differences between the parents and kids in these schools.

No I am not. I don't believe that genetics has anything to do with it. Nor does race, other than the cultural factors that are often attributable to different races. Don't project your beliefs on to me just because we have some overlapping views.

[Humboldt1]

Lookout,

Any educated person (particularly someone with biology background - I was biomed eng as undergrad) knows there is a genetic component in al of this. We are just prohibited by society from discussing it. The co-discoverer of DNA was essentially blacklisted by the scientific community for bringing such inconvenient truths to light.

Because changing genetics is harder I choose to focus on changing what we can change, the culture and the environment that breeds ineptitude. This is the kids and their parents and how people are raised.

There proof that race is a factor but no one has the guts to take this on. Let's agree to focus on what we can change, environment.

If you choose to take issue with the genetic piece I am happy to provide you with sources and people within the scientific community who are much more familiar with evolutionary biology than myself (I ended up being a corporate banker, not a geneticist unlike some of my buddies).

[pvande55]

You are probably laughing at those buddies. No wait a minute , that's not polite, and they may have the satisfaction they are making a difference instead of lots of money. But to address your point, there was a book about it, "The Bell Curve," about genetic differences. It was considered racist by some, as it said that African Americans have on the average lower intelligence. Curiously, it advocated deemphasizing remedial education but augmenting education for gifted students. If you are old enough you may remember Marva Collins, who had a private academy on the West Side where she taught some of these "backward" students with great results.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

There proof that race is a factor but no one has the guts to take this on.

No, there is not proof. A few scientists coming to this conclusion is not proof. Now, I understand that there are a lot of people who believe there is a conspiracy to hide the "real truth", but they really represent the fringe. People who are susceptible to conspiracy theories will go on and on about this "proof", but they usually also have some crackpot ideas about the "real cause for 9/11" or "the Jewish-controlled media conspiring to ruin the white race". In other words, they are idiots.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by cubssoxfan

So if we send New Trier Students to the crappiest CPS high school, they will do just as well? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I agree with Lookout 100%. I'd be willing to bet my very home on his premise that if you took the entire student body of New Trier and swapped it with the entire student body of the worst CPS High School -- and left the same teachers, administrators, and curriculum in place -- that formerly crappy CPS school would become one of the best in short order, and New Trier would quickly deteriorate into chaos.

Talking about genetics misses the mark though. The reason Lookout's theory is correct is because we take a "one size fits all" approach to education, and not a very effective one at that. The fact that anyone does well at all in U.S. schools is because of their family background. But a school system that depends on the family structure is going to fail miserably at levels below the middle class.

Naperville, Orland Park, and others who get glimmering reviews in U.S. News and Business Week can pat themselves on the back all day long about how great they are on education but truthfully, the reason their schools do well on standardized tests is because of their demographics. Wait 10-15 years when they start receiving challenged students in larger numbers and we'll see how they do then. My guess is that unless we change philosophies on a national level, they will deteriorate rapidly.

It's become abundently clear that we can no longer viably get by on the educational system we have now. It needs to be massively overhauled, from the ground up, and it needs to recognize that you cannot teach challenged students from the inner-city in the same way you teach upper middle class kids that live in the New Trier district.