Diversity in the South Suburbs... (Chicago, Aurora: estate, gated, mcmansion)

[cdc3217]

Personally, I don't get the impression that H-F is going to suffer white flight at the levels you're discussing. Don't you think answering questions this way justs promotes more of it? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy on this forum.

[NYrules]

Originally Posted by ParkForester

NYrules

But aren't we also to blame for the deterioration of the area? Instead of fighting for our communties and what we believe in, people took the easy way out and moved. Right?

It's the classic case of the grass is greener scenario. "why stay in Richton Park, when I can move to pretty, safe Frankfort???" It's that mindset. Orland and Tinley now are both facing the same thing with "pretty new" Lockport sitting off to it's immediate west calling Orland's residents names. Also in some cases when crime starts to get so out of control then people start asking themselves, "my kids are out there playing and there was just a drive by last night on that block??" (Hmmmm time to move so jr. can have a safe street to ride his bike down) So, while yes whites should stay put, they can only hold out for so long if the town isn't doing a thing to stop the crime from increasing. I would say its more the police's job to arrest these scum bags when they break the law and lock them up. Not let them right back out onto the streets after they get a slap on the wrist.

[sukwoo]

Originally Posted by ParkForester

NYrules

But aren't we also to blame for the deterioration of the area? Instead of fighting for our communties and what we believe in, people took the easy way out and moved. Right?

Boy, interesting and delicate topic. I think the answer to your question is yes and no.

Yes, ideally, it would be better if the original (white) inhabitants of these towns stayed and resisted the drift toward slumification. I can't cite the data, but I recall that a study demonstrated that the decreased property values associated with white-flight were due to whites moving out, not blacks moving in. It makes sense as in most parts of the country whites are still in the vast majority, and if a town suddenly becomes unattractive to 70% of the population, prices will fall. Its simple supply and demand.

On the other hand, theres only so much an individual can do to fight strong demographic/socioeconomic trends. You can't blame a family for deciding to move once they see the trend start. If they wait, they risk a significant decrease in their home value (typically the largest investment they have). Not to mention the risk of increased crime.

Unfortunately, individual decisions become and self-fulfilling prophecy. Its the rare town that has managed long-term stable racial integration.

One of the rare examples I'm aware of is my town of Oak Park. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was great fear that white flight, which was steady progressing through the west side of Chicago would inexorably reach Oak Park. In fact, a significant amount of white-flight did occur. What was different was that Oak Park made a deliberate decision to counter white-flight by marketing Oak Park to those liberal whites who were not afraid of living in a racially mixed community. By doing so, OP was able to maintain a high enough level of white demand to prevent the town from reaching the so-called "tipping point". OP had several advantages in its marketing campaing which most towns dont: an affluent population, incredible housing stock, and good transit access to Chicago. Still, the success of OP was arguably a close call. Crime did increase dramatically in those years, many businesses closed, and taxes skyrocketed (police, etc). Some of the activities engaged by Oak Park to promote white demand arguably skirted closed to being legally discriminatory.

[Love Cobb]

Hey dwest610, I hope you find the diversity you are so longing for!!!!

[ParkForester]

Originally Posted by NYrules

It's the classic case of the grass is greener scenario. "why stay in Richton Park, when I can move to pretty, safe Frankfort???" It's that mindset. Orland and Tinley now are both facing the same thing with "pretty new" Lockport sitting off to it's immediate west calling Orland's residents names. Also in some cases when crime starts to get so out of control then people start asking themselves, "my kids are out there playing and there was just a drive by last night on that block??" (Hmmmm time to move so jr. can have a safe street to ride his bike down) So, while yes whites should stay put, they can only hold out for so long if the town isn't doing a thing to stop the crime from increasing. I would say its more the police's job to arrest these scum bags when they break the law and lock them up. Not let them right back out onto the streets after they get a slap on the wrist.

Agreed. But we let it get to that point, didn't we? At the first sign of deterioration something should have been done by the residents of said community. We let it get this way and then we moved out, not wanting to deal with it when sooner or later the nice, new town we just moved into will be that way agian sooner or later. It's a vicious cycle that's needs to be stopped and the only way to do that is by residents taking hold of the community they live in to prevent the deterioration of the community. We can start by embracing diversity instead of running from it.

[giazma]

wow, i grew up on the SS, went to a catholic school for both high school and elementary and I think that is pretty sad that "white flight" even exists. Im white, and I live in Joliet......Close to 55, 80 and 355.....Yes, there are alot of whites, blacks, hispanic and OH MY in some areas crime! But on my block of 7 houses 3 of them are black families and everyone gets along fine (actually they have the 3 niest houses on the block! heheh ! I guess it doesnt matter what color you are but if your friendly enough to make nice with people. I would suggest moving to a newer area, Orland and such is nice but it is set in its ways, and if you are gonna start a family you may appreciate a new and upcoming area where all the young people are

[NYrules]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

Boy, interesting and delicate topic. I think the answer to your question is yes and no.

Yes, ideally, it would be better if the original (white) inhabitants of these towns stayed and resisted the drift toward slumification. I can't cite the data, but I recall that a study demonstrated that the decreased property values associated with white-flight were due to whites moving out, not blacks moving in. It makes sense as in most parts of the country whites are still in the vast majority, and if a town suddenly becomes unattractive to 70% of the population, prices will fall. Its simple supply and demand.

On the other hand, theres only so much an individual can do to fight strong demographic/socioeconomic trends. You can't blame a family for deciding to move once they see the trend start. If they wait, they risk a significant decrease in their home value (typically the largest investment they have). Not to mention the risk of increased crime.

Unfortunately, individual decisions become and self-fulfilling prophecy. Its the rare town that has managed long-term stable racial integration.

One of the rare examples I'm aware of is my town of Oak Park. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was great fear that white flight, which was steady progressing through the west side of Chicago would inexorably reach Oak Park. In fact, a significant amount of white-flight did occur. What was different was that Oak Park made a deliberate decision to counter white-flight by marketing Oak Park to those liberal whites who were not afraid of living in a racially mixed community. By doing so, OP was able to maintain a high enough level of white demand to prevent the town from reaching the so-called "tipping point". OP had several advantages in its marketing campaing which most towns dont: an affluent population, incredible housing stock, and good transit access to Chicago. Still, the success of OP was arguably a close call. Crime did increase dramatically in those years, many businesses closed, and taxes skyrocketed (police, etc). Some of the activities engaged by Oak Park to promote white demand arguably skirted closed to being legally discriminatory.

Oak Park though has one thing that many of the other towns that have changed don't... It is only a 30 minute drive into the Loop pretty much no matter what time of day, and what? 20 minutes by "L" of which towns that are changing like Matteson don't have either? Oak Park is no doubt in a league of it's own, but if that L was to go bye bye and 290 was at a complete standstill, you watch, the whites would flee there too for "greener pastures" Its the white mindset... Always looking for the B.B.D. And yes I am one of them sorry to say.

[sukwoo]

Originally Posted by NYrules

Oak Park though has one thing that many of the other towns that have changed don't... It is only a 30 minute drive into the Loop pretty much no matter what time of day, and what? 20 minutes by "L" of which towns that are changing like Matteson don't have either? Oak Park is no doubt in a league of it's own, but if that L was to go bye bye and 290 was at a complete standstill, you watch, the whites would flee there too for "greener pastures" Its the white mindset... Always looking for the B.B.D. And yes I am one of them sorry to say.

Absolute, I agree with you that Oak Park has some unique qualities that are hard to replicate in other suburbs. Neverntheless, I recall several years back when Matteson attempted to increase white demand by advertising in several newspaper as a nice, affordable town to live in. (don't know how successful they were at the time).

[NYrules]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

Absolute, I agree with you that Oak Park has some unique qualities that are hard to replicate in other suburbs. Neverntheless, I recall several years back when Matteson attempted to increase white demand by advertising in several newspaper as a nice, affordable town to live in. (don't know how successful they were at the time).

The mayor I think got canned if I remember right or in big trouble at least and the town got in HUGE trouble for that stunt because that out and out was racism at it's best there. They were saying things like "Matteson, a nice place for a white family" or something along those lines then they would only show white people doing shopping there in Lincoln Mall or white people buying homes and white police officers only arresting black men while saying, "Matteson has one of the best police forces on the south side of Chicago and we put crimnals behind bars"! LOL! (I'm laughing because I still can't believe they were that stupid to pull that stunt over there) I remember when I saw the ads, I couldn't believe it and was waiting for Jesse Jackson to get involved, but that campaign ended real quick because that was just plain wrong. I also remember the Daily Southtown tearing them to shreads over that stunt.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

One of the rare examples I'm aware of is my town of Oak Park. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was great fear that white flight, which was steady progressing through the west side of Chicago would inexorably reach Oak Park. In fact, a significant amount of white-flight did occur. What was different was that Oak Park made a deliberate decision to counter white-flight by marketing Oak Park to those liberal whites who were not afraid of living in a racially mixed community. By doing so, OP was able to maintain a high enough level of white demand to prevent the town from reaching the so-called "tipping point". OP had several advantages in its marketing campaing which most towns dont: an affluent population, incredible housing stock, and good transit access to Chicago. Still, the success of OP was arguably a close call. Crime did increase dramatically in those years, many businesses closed, and taxes skyrocketed (police, etc). Some of the activities engaged by Oak Park to promote white demand arguably skirted closed to being legally discriminatory.

Berwyn is now doing many of the same things Oak Park did to keep a reasonable balance of Hispanic/White. They recently passed a strong rental inspection ordinance, has a marketing program aimed at City-dwellers, and brought in the Oak Park Regional Housing Center last year. Unlike many areas which had African-American influxes, crime didn’t go up with the increase in the Hispanic population but, even so, maintaining diversity has been an issue. The white people moving here today definitely tend to be more open minded professionals/artists/musicians, who are usually from the City and used to more diversity. That's just fine by me actually. Not a lot of people are cross shopping Berwyn and Darien in other words, just like they probably don’t cross shop Oak Park and Orland Park.

I really think it’s possible to maintain a diverse community, but it does take some very special efforts. I too am saddened by the reaction of some white folks about living around minorities, but I’m still leery about fully blaming whites, because it takes the responsibility away from those who cause very real problems. Both groups should look at themselves and ask what they can do to contribute to diversity. Whites should probably be more tolerant and African-Americans perhaps a little more respectful of others. And besides, who knows? Maybe many of the points raised in your “The Next Slum” article will render white flight obsolete. I mean, how far out can you run? From what I’ve read, commuting from Plainfield sounds like a living hell. I’ll take my 15 minute drive to the Loop over that any day. As gas climbs towards $4/gallon, maybe people will start to more closely examine their own prejudices.