U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago Suburbs
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-22-2018, 12:23 PM
 
28,461 posts, read 76,313,410 times
Reputation: 18536

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy217 View Post
Yes, this is in Will County. Poor Matteson, I just feel like there is something that should be done. The cyclicality of the situation tends to lend itself to the suburbs being dumped for the city life for millennials. The family sizes are shrinking, which leads to families not wanting larger homes/land.


Also, there is a "brown" elephant in the room no one is addressing. Race plays a large part in the exodus of people from areas like Matteson.


In 20 years, if Matteson is not integrated by non-brown people, I can see it becoming like Chicago Heights/Harvey.
There is no real sign of a "cycle" where things have ups and downs. The signs point to more negatives and not much to move things in any positive direction. The things that would need to change to reverse the declines are much bigger than what the municipalities can do on their own or even working together. The negatives extend to the school situations, the burdens of property taxes, the shifts of jobs out of the region, and yes, probably some racial dynamics that might go all the way back to the shifts in public housing to vouchers from managed high rises and such.

It is also silly to ignore the ways in which the current gaps / deficiencies will make it unlikely for any new residents to move in regardless of skin color. Things like the already discussed / beaten-like-a-dead-horse difficulties of retail mean that folks who want good access to shopping are more likely to look elsewhere. I've already mentioned that though there is train service, the speed is not great considering the distance, and though it seem like reliability of the electric service has been better than in the past those problems likely left some bad feelings. It is kind of odd that, due to underutilization of the roads, one can probably drive the 25 miles or so from the Loop to a home in Flossmoor or Homewood in about the same time that the train would take, that is not going to appeal to the younger generations but maybe it could be used to attract folks who do find the idea of living in a more suburban setting and driving everywhere, don't know how you really target such folks.

It is similarly true that anyone motivated to seek out well ranked schools is unlikely to be impressed by the current status of HF. My experience is that as experienced teachers who may have been dedicated to the success of the school in its heyday retire it is much harder to build things up to that level with either younger teachers or teachers from other areas. https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...gh-school-6783
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-22-2018, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Homewood, IL
278 posts, read 363,321 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
There is no real sign of a "cycle" where things have ups and downs. The signs point to more negatives and not much to move things in any positive direction. The things that would need to change to reverse the declines are much bigger than what the municipalities can do on their own or even working together. The negatives extend to the school situations, the burdens of property taxes, the shifts of jobs out of the region, and yes, probably some racial dynamics that might go all the way back to the shifts in public housing to vouchers from managed high rises and such.

It is also silly to ignore the ways in which the current gaps / deficiencies will make it unlikely for any new residents to move in regardless of skin color. Things like the already discussed / beaten-like-a-dead-horse difficulties of retail mean that folks who want good access to shopping are more likely to look elsewhere. I've already mentioned that though there is train service, the speed is not great considering the distance, and though it seem like reliability of the electric service has been better than in the past those problems likely left some bad feelings. It is kind of odd that, due to underutilization of the roads, one can probably drive the 25 miles or so from the Loop to a home in Flossmoor or Homewood in about the same time that the train would take, that is not going to appeal to the younger generations but maybe it could be used to attract folks who do find the idea of living in a more suburban setting and driving everywhere, don't know how you really target such folks.

It is similarly true that anyone motivated to seek out well ranked schools is unlikely to be impressed by the current status of HF. My experience is that as experienced teachers who may have been dedicated to the success of the school in its heyday retire it is much harder to build things up to that level with either younger teachers or teachers from other areas. https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...gh-school-6783
I commend you sir. You definitely do your homework. Since property taxes will never drop, how will the so-called "death spiral" of the south suburbs be curtailed? I still think that Homewood/Flossmoor are still a tier above the other south suburban areas south of I-80 and east of I-57. Homes are still being sold in my area of Homewood to both white and black families. Retail is still popping up along Halsted and there are also talks of acquiring the property south and west of the I-80/Halsted interchange.


Matteson on the other hand, I'm not sure what to say. Chet, any ideas?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-22-2018, 02:40 PM
 
28,461 posts, read 76,313,410 times
Reputation: 18536
Default It really is troubling and should get more coverage from media...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy217 View Post
I commend you sir. You definitely do your homework. Since property taxes will never drop, how will the so-called "death spiral" of the south suburbs be curtailed? I still think that Homewood/Flossmoor are still a tier above the other south suburban areas south of I-80 and east of I-57. Homes are still being sold in my area of Homewood to both white and black families. Retail is still popping up along Halsted and there are also talks of acquiring the property south and west of the I-80/Halsted interchange.


Matteson on the other hand, I'm not sure what to say. Chet, any ideas?
I don't disagree that among the south suburbs there is still a much nicer stock of housing in Flossmoor and Homewood. That housing quality ought to be the focal point of any effort to stabilize / reverse declines.

The issues with retail are harder to address. Even really high priced towns struggle to deal with the side effects of bricks and mortar stores that are poorly run. I work close enough to the industry to know that it is not true that these closing are "due to Amazon" but rather trace their roots to a whole nasty stew of cost structures of employment, retail theft, over expanded chain stores and a dozen other contributing issues.

While a "permanent fix" is not really possible, steps can be taken so that things improve. Some of these of things can include cooperation between municipal / region leaders and the best run retailers. If you dig into the factors that good retailers use to differentiate themselves it is clearly possible to run stores in all kinds of economic conditions -- https://stores.org/2017/06/26/top-100-retailers/
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-22-2018, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Homewood, IL
278 posts, read 363,321 times
Reputation: 145
[quote=chet everett;51110760]I don't disagree that among the south suburbs there is still a much nicer stock of housing in Flossmoor and Homewood. That housing quality ought to be the focal point of any effort to stabilize / reverse declines.

The issues with retail are harder to address. Even really high priced towns struggle to deal with the side effects of bricks and mortar stores that are poorly run. I work close enough to the industry to know that it is not true that these closing are "due to Amazon" but rather trace their roots to a whole nasty stew of cost structures of employment, retail theft, over expanded chain stores and a dozen other contributing issues.

While a "permanent fix" is not really possible, steps can be taken so that things improve. Some of these of things can include cooperation between municipal / region leaders and the best run retailers. If you dig into the factors that good retailers use to differentiate themselves it is clearly possible to run stores in all kinds of economic conditions -- https://stores.org/2017/06/26/top-100-retailers/[/quote


Is rezoning a possibility? Possibly using the existing footprints to welcome commercial/intermodal facilities to combat taxes? This is prime location due to the proximity of the interstate system.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-22-2018, 03:52 PM
 
28,461 posts, read 76,313,410 times
Reputation: 18536
Default Municipalities really LOVE retail...

[quote=leroy217;51111032]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
I don't disagree that among the south suburbs there is still a much nicer stock of housing in Flossmoor and Homewood. That housing quality ought to be the focal point of any effort to stabilize / reverse declines.

The issues with retail are harder to address. Even really high priced towns struggle to deal with the side effects of bricks and mortar stores that are poorly run. I work close enough to the industry to know that it is not true that these closing are "due to Amazon" but rather trace their roots to a whole nasty stew of cost structures of employment, retail theft, over expanded chain stores and a dozen other contributing issues.

While a "permanent fix" is not really possible, steps can be taken so that things improve. Some of these of things can include cooperation between municipal / region leaders and the best run retailers. If you dig into the factors that good retailers use to differentiate themselves it is clearly possible to run stores in all kinds of economic conditions -- https://stores.org/2017/06/26/top-100-retailers/[/quote


Is rezoning a possibility? Possibly using the existing footprints to welcome commercial/intermodal facilities to combat taxes? This is prime location due to the proximity of the interstate system.

The structure of Illinois retail sales tax is such that right off the top the local municipality gets to pocket 1%. Many towns also tack on an additional half percent or more. That is permitted under the law and for towns with a solid base of retail results in substantial revenue.

Once a retailers move away they can be "lured back" by rebating some of that sales tax as well as doing things like creating a TIF that can fund improvements to the site / related infrastructure; when done in moderation and for areas that truly would otherwise be worthless this can be a good strategy but it is not magic. These policies feed the "throw money at me or I will find someone else who will" beast that consumes too much of the revenue that ought to go toward the regular programs that taxes should fund...

The specific issues that would come with rezoning former retail sites for industrial usage have already played out in places like Waukegan -- hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakehurst_Mall
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Homewood, IL
278 posts, read 363,321 times
Reputation: 145
[quote=chet everett;51111557]
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy217 View Post


The structure of Illinois retail sales tax is such that right off the top the local municipality gets to pocket 1%. Many towns also tack on an additional half percent or more. That is permitted under the law and for towns with a solid base of retail results in substantial revenue.

Once a retailers move away they can be "lured back" by rebating some of that sales tax as well as doing things like creating a TIF that can fund improvements to the site / related infrastructure; when done in moderation and for areas that truly would otherwise be worthless this can be a good strategy but it is not magic. These policies feed the "throw money at me or I will find someone else who will" beast that consumes too much of the revenue that ought to go toward the regular programs that taxes should fund...

The specific issues that would come with rezoning former retail sites for industrial usage have already played out in places like Waukegan -- hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakehurst_Mall
May I ask, what is your profession? You seem to have unlimited knowledge.


I just really want to know how can suburbs like Matteson, Harvey, Chicago Heights, etc can be revived? It's a conundrum to me. Why is "White Flight" such a bad thing? Can tax credits be given to new home buyers to possibly curtail the rising taxes?


So many questions!!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-23-2018, 05:20 PM
 
28,461 posts, read 76,313,410 times
Reputation: 18536
Default I've done lots of things and I am active in local politics...

[quote=leroy217;51123025]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post

May I ask, what is your profession? You seem to have unlimited knowledge.


I just really want to know how can suburbs like Matteson, Harvey, Chicago Heights, etc can be revived? It's a conundrum to me. Why is "White Flight" such a bad thing? Can tax credits be given to new home buyers to possibly curtail the rising taxes?


So many questions!!
I make my living now in tech related field. Before that I worked as a high school teacher and in real estate, both as an investor and agent. I learned lots of things about how local government actions (or lack of proper action) impact families. (I also have lots of "hobbies", some of which cost me money, like photography, others which make me money, like investing...)

As a practical matter it is very very difficult to "revive" any town that has experienced severe loss of employment. I travel to places in Michigan where there has been some success in switching from certain kinds of jobs, like the various well known office furnishings firms that have shifted the assembly work to lower cost areas while keeping the design and marketing functions healthy, but that is not the case for areas that never really had any "headquarters operations". Towns like Flint MI are probably the most well known for its collapse -- Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed The thing is that since it is pretty much far enough from other town it still at least some hospitals and such, so there are some decent jobs there, but the towns you mention are basically so run down and still close enough to much better areas that there are truly no reasons to expect any sort of employer to choose the place...

The lack of any businesses to shoulder property taxes means that home owners are getting wiped out. Broke municipalities have no revenue to offer as "credits". Pretty much a hopeless situation...

The departure of non-minorities happened so long ago that it is really can't be reversed and it is not even the primary issue -- in the towns mentioned the elected officials literally looted things. Ex-Chicago Heights officials indicted | Uncategorized | nwitimes.com

Last edited by Yac; 03-02-2018 at 06:44 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2018, 10:24 AM
 
28,461 posts, read 76,313,410 times
Reputation: 18536
Default No surprise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nealtaylor View Post
Carsons has now closed their Matteson location
The challenges facing Carsons's and its parent are well documented -- the Bon-Ton Company has about $1B in debts, far in excess of any reasonable way to manage this. https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ca...11-bankruptcy/
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2018, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Homewood, IL
278 posts, read 363,321 times
Reputation: 145
Default I wonder........




What will happen to building now? No business wants to move to Matteson. Especially a retailer!!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2018, 05:21 PM
 
205 posts, read 215,948 times
Reputation: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy217 View Post



What will happen to building now? No business wants to move to Matteson. Especially a retailer!!
Carson’s probably owns that building so they may sell it to the village of Matteson.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago Suburbs

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top