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Old 05-08-2008, 05:05 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,677 posts, read 44,444,073 times
Reputation: 13581

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongoe View Post
I'll have to compare the AP test scores across different districts. That seems like it might be a pretty good measure of college readiness, and ambitiousness of the students.
I'm wondering why vester72 says that Lincoln-Way East is known as a very good high school.

Neither of the Lincoln-Way high schools are academically strong enough to make the US News or Newsweek Best High Schools lists.

US News evaluated high schools on three criteria...

"1) the best high schools serve all students well by achieving performance levels in the core subjects of reading and math on state accountability tests that exceed statistical expectations given their relative levels of student poverty

2) the best high schools serve the least advantaged student groups well by producing proficiency rates on state tests for black, Hispanic, and economically disadvantaged students that exceed state averages for these groups

3) the best high schools provide students with access to a college-level curriculum, measured through participation and performance on AP tests."

Schools that meet the first two criteria win a Bronze Medal, and continue on to be evaluated by the third criterion to possibly qualify for a Silver or Gold Medal. According to US News, the first criterion was the hardest for high schools to meet.

Newsweek ranks according to the number of Advanced Placement, Intl. Baccalaureate and/or Cambridge tests taken by all students at a school divided by the number of graduating seniors, with no consideration given to actual performance. Questionable to be sure, but it does indicate a lack of volume in L-W high schools compared to other high schools in Illinois.

These links list the Illinois high schools that made the US News and Newsweek rankings:

Best High Schools Search - US News and World Report

America's Top Public High Schools | Newsweek Best High Schools | Newsweek.com

Sandburg in Orland Park makes the Newsweek list, but not the US News list.

With such favorable demographics, Lincoln-Way East really should be performing better that an average ACT score of 21.9. That's barely making some of the ACT's College Readiness Benchmarks.
http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlear...benchmarks.pdf

Sometimes people with good intentions will say that the schools in their area are 'very good,' 'excellent,' or 'among the best in the state' without really knowing how well, poorly, or somewhere in between, the schools in their area are actually preparing students for whatever future goals students have planned on pursuing.

It would be great if everyone would take an honest, objective look at their public schools' performance and become actively involved in making sure that the education their community's schools provide actually matches the community's students' post-secondary plans and goals.

A lot of people would be surprised at how large the percentage is of Chicago suburban high school graduates who can't meet the minimum prerequisite ACT score requirements to be placed into first year college credit courses at even their local community college (several community colleges have higher score requirements for first year college credit courses than ACT's Benchmark scores).
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Old 05-08-2008, 05:23 PM
 
162 posts, read 801,358 times
Reputation: 84
I do not recall saying anywhere that any schools in the SW burbs are close to best in the state or excellent. Frankly, the schools in the SW burbs, they are all quite comparable to each other and I specified they do not have the test scores of a Hinsdale Central, New Trier, Barrington, etc.

Seriously, please read what is said before making it sound like I made a general comparison to school in the state, country, or even Chicagoland area - I was very clear with my response - and I never, ever said the ACT scores were good because a 21 or 22 will not get you in into a decent college.

Oh, and those rankings by US News and World Report are a terrible indicator, with the Newsweek rankings not being too hot either - I am very familiar with both.

Tell me, in what world is Riverside-Brookfield 300 places better than New Trier?

Last edited by vester72; 05-08-2008 at 06:51 PM.. Reason: edited for clarification of ambiguity
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:08 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,677 posts, read 44,444,073 times
Reputation: 13581
Quote:
Originally Posted by vester72 View Post
I do not recall saying anywhere that any schools in the SW burbs are close to best in the state or excellent. Frankly, they are all quite comparable, the list I noted earlier and I specified they do not have the test scores of a Hinsdale Central, New Trier, Barrington, etc.

Seriously, please read what is said before making it sound like I made a general comparison to school in the state, country, or even Chicagoland area
This is exactly what you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vester72
Lincoln-Way East is known as a very good high school
To which I responded... I'm wondering why vester72 says that Lincoln-Way East is known as a very good high school.

Quote:
and I never, ever said the ACT scores were good because a 21 or 22 will not get you in into a decent college.
What do you mean, then, by 'a very good high school?'

Quote:
Oh, and those rankings by US News and World Report are a terrible indicator, with the Newsweek rankings not being too hot either - I am very familiar with both.
They have some limits, especially the Newsweek list, but they are not the terrible indicators you claim. Relocating parents need a better source of information than residents' civic pride. Do you have any idea how many times people claim that their local school is 'known as a very good school' or something similar?

Quote:
Tell me, in what world is Riverside-Brookfield 300 places better than New Trier?
In volume. I explained that. There are limits to Newsweek's methodology to be sure, but if a school is not on their list it means they're lacking in the numbers of AP/IB/Cambridge tests taken - an indication that there are fewer students pursuing such at the school. If that fits a relocating family's criteria, there's no problem.
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Old 05-08-2008, 06:46 PM
 
162 posts, read 801,358 times
Reputation: 84
1) This is exactly what I said, please go back and read it - big difference from what you are saying I said:

"Lincoln-Way East is known as a very good high school with excellent athletics"

The context of the entire post is the SW burbs, not schools in Chicago or the state, or country. In the SW burbs, Lincoln-Way East is known as one of the best schools - please keep the post in context.

2) "Very good" would be, in my opinion, a mix of solid academics (AP and honors courses offered), strong athletics - lots of sports with successful teams, lots of extra-curricular activities, involved parents, very well-funded school and not a lot of low-income students. Lincoln-Way East has all of these things. Can't all be derived from stats and reports, unfortunately.

3) Throw civic pride out the window and tell me, in what world, are those rankings anywhere near accurate. Are you honestly telling me that these rankings are, in any stretch of the imagination, anywhere close to being accurate? And if so, where are you from that you would actually believe that?

I am not a parent of a child at the school so please do not classify me as such.

4) "Newsweek ranks according to the number of Advanced Placement, Intl. Baccalaureate and/or Cambridge tests taken by all students at a school divided by the number of graduating seniors, with no consideration given to actual performance."

The methodology is so flawed that it is insane. I take it you are in no way connected with the world of academia or you would never have brought those rankings into the conversation, and you would have accurately read what was written.

Be careful or I will start a thread touting the academic excellence of the Elmhurst schools. . .

Last edited by vester72; 05-08-2008 at 06:58 PM..
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:07 PM
 
28,455 posts, read 85,078,607 times
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The biggest thing that hurts the high schools like Lincoln Way in comparison to RB is the size. The rankings also weight the minority achievement in way that gives schools like RB a bit of boost.

As a former teacher I know that there is really no more sections of the very challenging AP Physics or Calculus classes at RB than Lincoln Way. The rankings don't really adequately address these sorts of things. I don't really know if these are even the best measure of total student achievement. It is terribly difficult to find any single way to account for all the differences between schools. Ultimately the success of individual students is something for parents to be very concerned with, but I agree that the success of all/most students is something that all citizens ought to demand more of...
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:23 PM
 
162 posts, read 801,358 times
Reputation: 84
Also, my RB vs. New Trier statement was not a slam on RB - my sister-in-law is from Riverside and went to RB and I know it is a very good school that I would have my children attend without hesitation if I lived in that area.
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Old 05-08-2008, 10:31 PM
 
76 posts, read 210,103 times
Reputation: 39
Default OP reply

Sounds like good, but not excellent, academics may describe LW/157c schools, but difficult to know for sure because of lack of good metrics. The percent of seniors who achieve high scores on AP tests seems like a pretty decent metric that I should try to compare across schools I"m considering. Is there a convenient source for that stat? I don't recall seeing it on the Illinois School Grade Cards.

Another issue when using scores is that many of the students in new growth areas, spent many of their schooling years in *other* districts before moving to the district they graduated from. It almost seems like they ought to weight the average ACT by how many years the student attended the district (or it's feeder district). Not as a replacement for the straight average, but as an additional metric.

Of course, I'm most interested in the performance of *my* child, which is a function of both the schools and our parenting (and genetics, but I can't change that). As long as the school offers AP courses and quality activities and has top teachers, then I'm not as concerned about the percent of other students who take advantage of these opportunities. Peer effects can indeed play a role in my child's development -- work ethics, expectations, etc -- so I would rather the averages be high, but the primary concern is whether the opportunities and teacher quality are "up to snuff".

With that in mind, I do worry a little about the low teacher salary and relatively low share of teachers with masters degrees. Not that a masters degree is required to be a good teacher -- much of what it takes to be a good teacher can't be learned at all (you either have it or you don't). But all else equal, more training is good, and LW/157c seems to have less training.

Given my desire to use the Electric line to commute to U of C (as most of you know from the other thread I started), I suspect I will find LW/157c to be good enough. High school is still a ways off, if I'm not impressed, I suppose we could use the Lab schools for high school. But to do so with 4 kids for k-12 would break me financially.

Thanks for all the information you've provided. Very helpful.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:24 AM
 
162 posts, read 801,358 times
Reputation: 84
I used to live in the city not far from Hyde Park and if you do have the option for the Lab School ($$) it is an excellent option. Would be a commute for the kids if you were in the burbs, but a great school (I do not know test scores but a few of my former neighbors have kids there, including Obama's kids). Diverse school and excellent academically (gulp, I am almost afraid to make that statement). I did see test scores somewhere, but cannot recall what they are.

Regardless, another good school in the SW/South burbs is Marion Catholic - I think avg ACT is in the 25-26 range, for what that's worth.

Frankly, if your kids are smart they will do well in almost any school and will score well on tests with some preparation.

Last edited by vester72; 05-09-2008 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:38 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,677 posts, read 44,444,073 times
Reputation: 13581
Quote:
Originally Posted by vester72 View Post
1) This is exactly what I said, please go back and read it - big difference from what you are saying I said:

"Lincoln-Way East is known as a very good high school with excellent athletics"

The context of the entire post is the SW burbs, not schools in Chicago or the state, or country. In the SW burbs, Lincoln-Way East is known as one of the best schools - please keep the post in context.
We don't live in isolation. Comparisons throughout the Chicago suburban area are valid. And from the available data, I don't agree that L-W East is 'one of the best.' Such claims are misleading.

Quote:
2) "Very good" would be, in my opinion, a mix of solid academics (AP and honors courses offered), strong athletics - lots of sports with successful teams, lots of extra-curricular activities, involved parents, very well-funded school and not a lot of low-income students. Lincoln-Way East has all of these things. Can't all be derived from stats and reports, unfortunately.
'Very good' would combine those things with a much stronger academic performance.

Quote:
3) Throw civic pride out the window and tell me, in what world, are those rankings anywhere near accurate. Are you honestly telling me that these rankings are, in any stretch of the imagination, anywhere close to being accurate? And if so, where are you from that you would actually believe that?
I've lived in various areas of the U.S., some much more academically competitive than others. And I can tell you that yes, the rankings are generally fairly accurate in as much as they do recognize high quality - or in other words 'very good' - schools.

Quote:
I am not a parent of a child at the school so please do not classify me as such.
Community members are school district stakeholders and should take an interest in boosting academic performance that is not as strong as it should be. That's in everyone's best interest.

Quote:
The methodology is so flawed that it is insane. I take it you are in no way connected with the world of academia or you would never have brought those rankings into the conversation, and you would have accurately read what was written.
You have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Be careful or I will start a thread touting the academic excellence of the Elmhurst schools. . .
People are aware of Elmhurst's schools challenges and shortcomings. Those should be, and probably are being, addressed by the Elmhurst community.
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:27 PM
 
172 posts, read 314,534 times
Reputation: 76
Just realized this thread is old but whatever. Lincoln way east is in us news /ranked as a top us high school. I just looked, and its #47 in IL. Frankfort is definitely not Hicksville. I live in lighthouse point 161 district and now I'm moving to abbey woods (157). I'm a physician (nephrologist) and my wife is an internist, our neighbor in abbey is ortho spine surgeon, another is family practice, endocrinologist, and a handful of other physician friends live here and around frankfort. I know about 2 dozen, just the ones I'm acquainted with. So far judt in abbey woods (I'm a car nut) I've seen a Ferrari 458 Italia, Lamborghini gallardo, Porsche cayman S, just from what I've seen recently, I'm adding a Nissan GT-R and a e63 amg to the mix. I haven't seen a single ATV. In lighthouse one of my neighbors has a Audi R8, and another a Bentley continental GTC speed. Lol. My gauge of how well ppl may be doing...
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