Elmwood park , What is happing to it? (Mark: 2009, renters)

[oakparkdude]

Regarding white flight from Asian-majority California cities, I have a good friend (ethnic Chinese married to Russian Jew) who lives in Irvine, which is probably majority Asian. Its a very, very affluent community with good schools, low crime etc. Based on comments he's made, and also about a few articles I've read, there is indeed a California-specific phenomena of white flight from affluent Asian neighborhoods. Part of it is due to economic displacement; ie, the whites can't afford to live there anymore as the Asians bid up the real estate prices. Also, a lot of the white parents complain that their kids can't or won't compete with the "superachieving" (but not well-rounded Asian kids), even my Chinese-American friend complains about them, so they try to move to a less competitive school district.

In other words, its an entirely different situation from the white-flighters in Chicago, and I don't really think it has much relevance here.

[ndfmnlf]

Just curious do you know anyone in Elmwood Park or are you just spouting off liberal ideals? We have people on here who just spout ideals to start arguments with no facts or life experience to back them up and they are called trolls. Regardless of my opinions, I am not a troll as I actually live on the west side of Chicago and have lived it, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Which "liberal" idea did I "spout" that you object to? The fact that renting is a stepping stone to homeownership? Or that carrying a mortgage and getting a tax deduction from it is a form of subsidy from the government, no different from the subsidy in section 8 housing? And if you are questioning my credentials, I'm quite familiar with Elmwood Park for reasons I won't have to disclose to you and which are irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

Some of my former renters, who grew up in the projects of Chicago, will always stay renters. Their credit is crap because they don't pay their bills and even at 50 years old have not accepted responsibility for their actions, always blaming others. People like this will never become homeowners.

So you were/are a landlord who caters to section 8 type residents. Then maybe you should blame yourself for allowing these kinds of people to live in your apartment.

If foreigners move into Elmwood Park, you will not see white flight. It doesn't happen like that. There are different kinds of diversity. In my experience white flight generally happens when blacks move into a neighborhood, and to a lessor degree when hispanics move in. In Chicago, white and hispanics coexist much better than whites and blacks. If you don't believe me just look at the ethnic satellite maps and you can clearly see that hispanics serve as a buffer between black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods, with some exceptions such as Oak Park and perhaps Hyde Park. As I noted before, I have never heard of white flight due to an influx of Asians.

I'm not saying white flight will happen when wealthy foreigners move into the neighborhood. Did you even read my post? I asked concerned resident what he would do if such a thing were to happen. I asked him since he is so opposed to diversity. I wanted to know whether he opposes non-whites in general or just non-whites who have no money.

[ndfmnlf]

In other words, its an entirely different situation from the white-flighters in Chicago, and I don't really think it has much relevance here.

Actually it is relevant. The point of this thread supposedly is that whites flee areas with high crime rates brought about by the influx of minority groups. But this is disputed by the fact that in California where the minority groups (ie Asians) actually brought development, increased affluence, better schools, low crime, etc.....the whites still fled them anyway. So high crime by itself is not a reason for white flight. High cost of living may be a reason, but then again, that's what you get with greater affluence.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

Actually it is relevant. The point of this thread supposedly is that whites flee areas with high crime rates brought about by the influx of minority groups. But this is disputed by the fact that in California where the minority groups (ie Asians) actually brought development, increased affluence, better schools, low crime, etc.....the whites still fled them anyway. So high crime by itself is not a reason for white flight. High cost of living may be a reason, but then again, that's what you get with greater affluence.

You and I are on the same page in our dislike of white flight but I think Sukwoo's right here. You can't quote California examples of wealthy Asians moving into a community and then try to apply them here, an area which has an unfortunate history of lower income African Americans moving into communities and, by all measures of quality of life, destroying them. That's not true in every single case, but in too many of them, it is.

I'm one of those who criticizes whites for overreacting and acting elitist and minority groups for not stepping up to the plate and doing more to improve their own situation. I guess I'm neither conservative nor PC But looking at the situation, how can you be?

[Humboldt1]

Bru,

I agree that in many cases as neighborhoods have changed from white to lower class black, the areas have deteriorated, as we have seen on the west and south sides of Chicago.

However, I do not blame those who leave but those who are coming in for the deterioration of the neighborhood. No one is complaining about these affluent asians moving and destroying the neighborhood. Actually, they are improving it. I understand the ultra-competitive school thing and perhaps long-time residents don't like seeing their property taxes rise as home values go up, but the areas are getting better, not worse.

How can you blame a white family who sees their neighborhood falling apart for wanting to move? Once a neighborhood turns, there is generally no going back. I would argue that Oak Park never fully turned, as blacks have never been a majority of the population and that much of the black population is concentrated along a large apartment building on lake street and the blocks near austin. You can clearly see this on the ethnic map posted earlier for Oak Park.

If it was affluent asians and not poor blacks that had moved into Austin, we would not have the problems that we have today. The worst of their worries would be overachieving kids and high property taxes, not getting robbed or killed.

I don't really care who moves into my neighborhood so long as they are better. If it is black doctors and lawyers who buy homes and take of then I am all for it. If it is thugs and people who have nothing better to do than hang out on street corners all day, regardless of race, I don't want them living next to me. I will never fully understand why ghetto people cannot take more responsibility for themselves and improve their lot instead of spending so much time blaming others for their plight.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

I don't really care who moves into my neighborhood so long as they are better. If it is black doctors and lawyers who buy homes and take of then I am all for it. If it is thugs and people who have nothing better to do than hang out on street corners all day, regardless of race, I don't want them living next to me. I will never fully understand why ghetto people cannot take more responsibility for themselves and improve their lot instead of spending so much time blaming others for their plight.

That's all fine and dandy, but historically that's not at all how whites have reacted to increased diversity.

It was first the black professionals like lawyers and doctors who were dissuaded so emphatically from moving into these good neighborhoods.

[Humboldt1]

The problem with that first wave of doctors and lawyers is that generally those who follow them are not so professional. The first wave is like when the dam first starts to break. Only the most driven water gets thru and then the dam collapses and any and all water gets thru. It is not so different when a neighborhood turns from one race to another.

Had the second and third wave of newcomers remained professionals and not lessor sorts Austin would still be nice, as would many other blighted areas in the city, including Lawndale, Garfield Park and Humboldt Park (though I would argue my area is getting better).

[aragx6]

That's because the whites fled which knocked down housing values!

My point is, you try to deny that there is racism involved here and that it's pure economics, but that's simply not the case. Just because you wouldn't move if black professionals moved in, doesn't change the fact that that is exactly what happened to these neighborhoods.

[ndfmnlf]

The problem with that first wave of doctors and lawyers is that generally those who follow them are not so professional. The first wave is like when the dam first starts to break. Only the most driven water gets thru and then the dam collapses and any and all water gets thru. It is not so different when a neighborhood turns from one race to another.

So you're likening the black doctors and lawyers to Trojan horses that slip through the walls of all-white suburbia and enable the barbarian hordes to follow in their tracks. Nice analogy. So now, you should bar even black professionals from gaining a foothold.

[Irishtom29]

I lived in Austin when it changed in the late 60s and early 70s. Nobody in their right mind who could'a left would'a stayed. Things simply start getting dangerous---people getting robbed, apartments and houses broken into. So if you can you leave, that's that.

I could go into detail but you wouldn't believe it (well some of you would), besides, some things don't have a statute of limitations.