What do you think the next suburb to experience white flight will be? (Chicago: Home Depot, school district)

[Mister Mappy]

Originally Posted by promis1

Belive me, I am not alone in my thinking. I just have a little more courage than others. I dont blow with the wind as many liberals seem to do. They believe in whatever is in- I stand by my traditional morals and it is a great compliment to say that my thinking is of the 1950s. It may have been the greatest era this country ever experienced.

It is not courageous to spout racism and homophobia, which is what you do. You remind of all the people who used to live in Jefferson Park in the 70's. They were so scared of anyone that was not like them, lily white. They all spouted the same garbage. I grew up in Jeff Park (we moved to Glenwood after I was in 9th grade). If racism and homophobia are "traditional morals" then I'm proud to be a "radical". There are many conservatives out there who do not spout racism and homophobia. That doesn't make you conservative, it just makes you....well, never mind.

Here's a story from when I was a kid in Jefferson Park. When I was about 11, my mother was an RN at St. Elizabeth's Hospital on Western Ave. One weekend day, she had a barbeque, and invited her co-workers over. There was mix of white, black, Puerto Rican, and Filipino. My mother had set up a volleyball net and the backyard. Everybody had a good time, nobody was rowdy, and the whole thing was over by sunset. A few days later we got a note from a "concerned neighbor" basically saying that "We do not want the element that was at your backyard barbeque on Sarurday around here. Such people coming in to the neighborhood could lower property values. Please refrain from inviting such people to your house, or maybe you should consider moving from the neighborhood". Nice, isn't it?

We never did find out who left that note, since they were too cowardly to leave their name. My mother did contact the police, but they said there was nothing they could do since it was anonymous.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by promis1

Belive me, I am not alone in my thinking.

Sadly, I know

[ajolotl]

I wouldn't reduce this to a liberal/conservative debate. I'm pretty conservative in a lot of ways, but I've also been fortunate enough to have lived in four different countries and traveled the world. I've seen good and bad people of every ethnicity, and I've also seen how poverty can destroy the whitest of white europeans as much as anybody else (have you ever visited the poor parts of eastern europe?). I can't blame someone for feeling irritation over minorities in Chicago, but I think when you take a historical perspective it's pretty clear that what appears so obvious is really an illusion. If it's not the Mexicans of the blacks it will be someone else. I agree with some of your points -- that immigrants should feel more compelled to learn English, etc. -- but I tend to think they're a little exaggerated and born more out of fear and lack of familiarity than any hard evidence or experience. Anyhow, as a native Spanish speaker I can tell you that by second generation the native tongue is all but totally gone, regardless of the lack of effort.

I don't begrudge you for having a taste for living near this or that group of people. Who cares? Enjoy Orland Park, or Australia, or wherever you move. I have a sister who is similar, needs to be around middle-aged middle-class white people or else gets nervous and feels out of sorts. I don't think she's a bad person. Personally, I like to mix it up, talk to people with different perspectives, stories, backgrounds, maybe learn a little about their country, language, world view, etc. and not get too caught up in my own narrow perspective.

I don't think it's courageous to state your views on an anonymous message board. At a public meeting in Hyde Park, etc., though I agree would be pretty brave.

Personally, I'm done with this thread!

Originally Posted by promis1

Belive me, I am not alone in my thinking. I just have a little more courage than others. I dont blow with the wind as many liberals seem to do. They believe in whatever is in- I stand by my traditional morals and it is a great compliment to say that my thinking is of the 1950s. It may have been the greatest era this country ever experienced.

[promis1]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

I wouldn't reduce this to a liberal/conservative debate. I'm pretty conservative in a lot of ways, but I've also been fortunate enough to have lived in four different countries and traveled the world. I've seen good and bad people of every ethnicity, and I've also seen how poverty can destroy the whitest of white europeans as much as anybody else (have you ever visited the poor parts of eastern europe?). I can't blame someone for feeling irritation over minorities in Chicago, but I think when you take a historical perspective it's pretty clear that what appears so obvious is really an illusion. If it's not the Mexicans of the blacks it will be someone else. I agree with some of your points -- that immigrants should feel more compelled to learn English, etc. -- but I tend to think they're a little exaggerated and born more out of fear and lack of familiarity than any hard evidence or experience. Anyhow, as a native Spanish speaker I can tell you that by second generation the native tongue is all but totally gone, regardless of the lack of effort.

I don't begrudge you for having a taste for living near this or that group of people. Who cares? Enjoy Orland Park, or Australia, or wherever you move. I have a sister who is similar, needs to be around middle-aged middle-class white people or else gets nervous and feels out of sorts. I don't think she's a bad person. Personally, I like to mix it up, talk to people with different perspectives, stories, backgrounds, maybe learn a little about their country, language, world view, etc. and not get too caught up in my own narrow perspective.

I don't think it's courageous to state your views on an anonymous message board. At a public meeting in Hyde Park, etc., though I agree would be pretty brave.

Personally, I'm done with this thread!

My feelings do come from my personal experiences, after growing up in areas that were once safe and no longer are due to certain groups that came in. Everything I say makes sense, but people feel the need to argue my points out of the chance that they may appear racist if they agree with me. And believe me, I dont just preach on the internet, I tell people how I feel in person and many times gain respect for my honesty.

[crbcrbrgv]

Originally Posted by promis1

My feelings do come from my personal experiences, after growing up in areas that were once safe and no longer are due to certain groups that came in. Everything I say makes sense, but people feel the need to argue my points out of the chance that they may appear racist if they agree with me. And believe me, I dont just preach on the internet, I tell people how I feel in person and many times gain respect for my honesty.

Yet your opinions are coming from a person who thinks Berwyn looks like Mexico City because Hispanics have moved in. Minus the aging, Berwyn looks pretty much the same as when the Czechs all lived there back in the day. And contrary to popular belief, there were plenty of families of all nationalities that made absolutely no effort whatsoever to learn English. They didn't have to. They had community newspapers in their own languages. They had merchants who spoke their language. They even had preists who spoke their language. First generation mmigrants don't really have enough time to learn English. They are working too hard. I get sick and tired of people acting as though Mexicans are any different than previous groups who immigrated. Do you think there were no Irish gangs? Ever hear of, I don't know, the Mafia? Ignorance is what causes these views. It is what causes white flight. The first black family that moves into a neighborhood had to have the same amount of money as everyone else around him. This family didn't get to that point by being uneducated bums.

[Sub-Urban Princess]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

I don't think it's courageous to state your views on an anonymous message board. At a public meeting in Hyde Park, etc., though I agree would be pretty brave.

and the crowd roars....!!!

I also agree that this thread has taken on a life of it's own thanks to people who reject change and integration. I can only think that it's fear of the unknown. White flighting was a flaming topic. Good while it lasted though.

I think I'm going to go next door and tell my South Asian neighbors that I'm glad that we are neighbors and take them a small gift! They did shovel my side of the sidewalk yesterday. So sweet, they are.

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by promis1

My grandfather cames from Naples, Italy to Chicago in the 1920s. They migrated to Taylor St. and stayed there for over 50 years, before moving to Elmwood Park....
They never cried racism when they were called deragatory words regarding their ethnicity. It just made my grandpa stronger that led to his successful story.

Actually, in the fifties Italians did cry racism. Did you know that Italians were barred from buying some homes in suburban Detroit in the fifties on a point system? Their acceptance was based on the amount of skin pigment, i.e. the darker Italian you were the more points there was against you? This caused one humongous outcry!

Did you know that Vince Lombardi complained about missing out on coaching jobs in the fifties and he blamed it on the fact that he was Italian? Read one of his biographies. I guess he was playing the victim card? Do you think Viola Liuzzo, who was certainly a brave Italian woman, would share your opinion about protesting discrimination?

I have an Italian friend who walked a picket line with about 50 other folks to protest the airing of "The Sopranos" because she felt it was racist and just Amos and Andy in white face. Sound familiar to you?

And I am sure you recall that Italians were lynched in a race riot in New Orleans. Sure, the fifties were glory years. You just have a selective memory.

[promis1]

Originally Posted by crbcrbrgv

Yet your opinions are coming from a person who thinks Berwyn looks like Mexico City because Hispanics have moved in. Minus the aging, Berwyn looks pretty much the same as when the Czechs all lived there back in the day. And contrary to popular belief, there were plenty of families of all nationalities that made absolutely no effort whatsoever to learn English. They didn't have to. They had community newspapers in their own languages. They had merchants who spoke their language. They even had preists who spoke their language. First generation mmigrants don't really have enough time to learn English. They are working too hard. I get sick and tired of people acting as though Mexicans are any different than previous groups who immigrated. Do you think there were no Irish gangs? Ever hear of, I don't know, the Mafia? Ignorance is what causes these views. It is what causes white flight. The first black family that moves into a neighborhood had to have the same amount of money as everyone else around him. This family didn't get to that point by being uneducated bums.

The difference is there are more illegal immigrants now than ever before-therefore, not paying into our system-not acting as Americans should.

[mendelman]

Oh god, please make this stop. I don't care about this guy's views and other's opposition to it. Just stop.

Back on topic - I would agree that the future will involve "wealth flight" as opposed to "white flight".

[promis1]

Originally Posted by Manigault

Actually, in the fifties Italians did cry racism. Did you know that Italians were barred from buying some homes in suburban Detroit in the fifties on a point system? Their acceptance was based on the amount of skin pigment, i.e. the darker Italian you were the more points there was against you? This caused one humongous outcry!

Did you know that Vince Lombardi complained about missing out on coaching jobs in the fifties and he blamed it on the fact that he was Italian? Read one of his biographies. I guess he was playing the victim card? Do you think Viola Liuzzo, who was certainly a brave Italian woman, would share your opinion about protesting discrimination?

I have an Italian friend who walked a picket line with about 50 other folks to protest the airing of "The Sopranos" because she felt it was racist and just Amos and Andy in white face. Sound familiar to you?

And I am sure you recall that Italians were lynched in a race riot in New Orleans. Sure, the fifties were glory years. You just have a selective memory.

Sure there was discrimination versus Italians and there still is. But look what you said, there were 50 Italians that protested the Sopranos. 50- thats it- the rest of us were too busy working jobs and getting on with our lives. When other minority groups march every time a young black man was shot by the police, you will see many more than 50 marching. They have more time to march, due to many being unemployed, receiving government aid. We, as a people never received government aid, despite lynchings in New Orleans, etc. Thats my point- we prospered on our own. Unfortunate, that others need more help and guidance.