south suburbs? (Chicago, Orland Park, Palos Hills: safe neighborhood, good schools, income)

[TammiT]

Here's the deal with the south suburbs. People are separated according to race. West is predominately white, prices of home mid $250,000 and up. East is predominately black, 140,000 and up . East is a combination of low to upper income. West is mid to upper. That's it in a nutshell. My priority was moving to a mixed area, for my children, so I chose not to move east in an upper income area. We are so segregated in Illinois I'm not sure how long this community will last. With all that is going on in the world, grown people are still acting like children. We separate, then when there is a crisis we hold hands and cry. It's sad. Oh, I forgot. There are some whites that still live east some are moving to the following towns in Indiana: Dyer, Merreville, Schereville, St. John, Crown Point. All predominately white communities. I'm told they remember white flight in the 70's and are afraid to hang around to see what is going to happen to their community since the "less desirable" people are moving in. God bless.

[WildWestDude]

Originally Posted by TammiT

Here's the deal with the south suburbs. People are separated according to race. West is predominately white, prices of home mid $250,000 and up. East is predominately black, 140,000 and up . East is a combination of low to upper income. West is mid to upper. That's it in a nutshell. My priority was moving to a mixed area, for my children, so I chose not to move east in an upper income area. We are so segregated in Illinois I'm not sure how long this community will last. With all that is going on in the world, grown people are still acting like children. We separate, then when there is a crisis we hold hands and cry. It's sad. Oh, I forgot. There are some whites that still live east some are moving to the following towns in Indiana: Dyer, Merreville, Schereville, St. John, Crown Point. All predominately white communities. I'm told they remember white flight in the 70's and are afraid to hang around to see what is going to happen to their community since the "less desirable" people are moving in. God bless.

You come out saying that intergration is the only way to go and that whites are racists. Again, if I want to live amongst my people, I should be able to do that and not have any gov. programs mess it up.
FACT: when "another" group moves in crime does go up, WAY UP!

[vester72]

Originally Posted by WildWestDude

FACT: when "another" group moves in crime does go up, WAY UP!

Also, and this is probably the biggest factor for "white flight" are the situations in public schools, primarily test scores.

TF South (in Lansing) - Avg ACT 1998 - 20.8 - Avg ACT in 2007 - 18.8

Thornwood - Avg ACT was 19 in 1998, in 2007 it was 17 (both of those scores are horrendous)

Homewood-Flossmoor - Avg ACT was 23.2 in 1998, it was 21.5 in 2007

Rich South - 1998 Avg ACT - 19.1 - 2007 Avg ACT - 17.8

Rich East - 1998 Avg ACT - 19.8 - 2007 Avg ACT - 17.4

For reference, Hinsdale Central is a 25 average, New Trier is a 27 average. A score of 21 will not get you into a good college - that is what is a major driver of people "fleeing" areas.

FWIW, my wife went to Thornwood in the late 80's, early 90's and they had to put in metal detectors - that is NOT a normal high school environment. That is a common theme of the burbs that "change" in the south side and that is another cause of "white flight".

While people may want to skirt these issues, they are, unfortunately very, very real.

All the data is found for free, right here:
getSearchCriteria

[vester72]

Originally Posted by CBexp.

The Homewood and Flossmoor area is two of the better areas in the south suburbs, with a closer town feel than that of Orland or Tinley Park.The schools are ok , but not as excelled as Homewood-Flossmoor schools. The park districts don't compare either. H-F park district recently won another national award! Metra train service is in both towns. Check it out for youself though of course, and good luck! Oh, crime is low here too, except mabey the occassional teen stealing a lawn ornament!

For reference, Sandburg (Orland Park) and Andrew (Tinley Park) have passed H-F from an ACT and overall test score perspective.

Andrew - Avg ACT = 22
Sandburg - Avg ACT 22.7
H-F - Avg ACT = 21.5

[LIS123]

I agree with many of the recent posts. If the data (be it crime, academic performance, etc) suggest that the enhanced presence of 'another group' is bad for the community, then prospective residents should view it as such. It's not a matter of being prejudiced or biased, so much as working with the data one is given. These are things people look for when buying homes, so it very well may adversely impact the value of your property.
That said, I wouldn't get too excited about communities that are 'predominantly white' as mentioned in a recent post. Many of the communities here in NW Indiana fit that demographic. I don't know about the older adults, but many of the younger white adults (22-35 years old) here in NWI are very unimpressive as people. Many of the women are modestly educated, living at home and ot doing much professionally. Most of them are overweight as well, with a very noticeable proportion of single mothers. A lot of the men aren't much better. The women seem to just latch on to some desperate guy and force him to take care of her. It's pretty sad, because this is a nice place to live otherwise. Unfortunately, the culture is very nonchalant, so a lot of those things are accepted. They're not even really frowned upon.

[cdc3217]

Originally Posted by LIS123

If the data (be it crime, academic performance, etc) suggest that the enhanced presence of 'another group' is bad for the community, then prospective residents should view it as such. It's not a matter of being prejudiced or biased, so much as working with the data one is given. These are things people look for when buying homes, so it very well may adversely impact the value of your property.

First of all, buying a house is generally more than an empirical decision. I've seen al least some posts where people are looking for diversity, looking for affordable, looking for walkable neighborhoods. If you statistaically limit yourself to the top few communities in terms of low crime or high test scores, you're ruling our a HUGE amount of real estate that might be just what you had imagined.

Second, from what I'm reading here, I should infer that anytime a poster asks for a SAFE neighborhood, that is code for a homogenous white neighborhood? That seems preposterous.

[LIS123]

What I meant was that certain data points can not be ignored in light of Political Correctness. If neighborhoods that have seen an increase in minorities have concurrently seen an increase in crime and a decrease in test scores, one should take that into consideration when evaluating that community. Whether it's 'racist' or not is not the point. If the data suggests that there is a relation between the two, then prospective residents should acknowledge that, even at the expense of being seen as prejudiced. You're certainly right in that the other factors you mentioned are important as well.
As for your 2nd point, you are for the most part correct in that the term 'good' or 'safe' neighborhood means on in which the main ethnic group is Caucasian. 'Bad' or 'dangerous' neighborhood usually implies the opposite. Preposterous or not, this does seem to be the generally accepted code/jargon. That's why I highlighted that the people in many predominantly Caucasian communities in NWI are really not that impressive overall as people, despite fitting into the generally more desirable Caucasian demographic.

[vester72]

One thing that cannot be minimized are schools and school performance. Most people go to the burbs for their children - to raise them in a safe environment and to get them the best schooling possible so they have all the tools necessary to succeed in life (at least the people I know).

I am moving to the burbs from the city for these exact reasons, so evaluating the community, housing, taxes, proximity to transportation, etc is critical - schools, test scores and crime rates are also very, very critical parts of that decision making process for me and my family. Also, knowing these factors "should" make the house a safe investment - my home is a critical part of my investment portfolio (I am not going to inherit any money and am not independently wealthy) so buying a home in an area that could see a decline in prices due to some of the factors above would be very, very bad for me and my family.

Look at the North Shore, Hinsdale, Burr Ridge, Lemont, Frankfort, Naperville, Downers Grove, Arlington Heights, Elmhurst, etc and the main reason these communities have such high prices, great resale values, high demand are the excellent public schools and low crime rates.

Most educated people do look at these things - regardless of their race, ethnicity, religion, etc.

[LIS123]

Vester72: thanks for the great post! It's clear that your decision regarding where to live is based on objective data. The aforementioned factors should certainly be looked at very carefully before deciding where to move. If, for example, there were communities with ethnic mixes similar to Harvey and Hazel Crest whose schools and crime were at the level of places like Hinsdale and Naperville, people would certainly be much less reluctant to live in such communities than they are now.
In reality, how many people who have the money to afford to live in a place with better schools and lower crime choose to live in places with weaker schools and higher crime?

[cdc3217]

Originally Posted by LIS123

What I meant was that certain data points can not be ignored in light of Political Correctness. If neighborhoods that have seen an increase in minorities have concurrently seen an increase in crime and a decrease in test scores, one should take that into consideration when evaluating that community. Whether it's 'racist' or not is not the point. If the data suggests that there is a relation between the two, then prospective residents should acknowledge that, even at the expense of being seen as prejudiced. You're certainly right in that the other factors you mentioned are important as well.
As for your 2nd point, you are for the most part correct in that the term 'good' or 'safe' neighborhood means on in which the main ethnic group is Caucasian. 'Bad' or 'dangerous' neighborhood usually implies the opposite. Preposterous or not, this does seem to be the generally accepted code/jargon. That's why I highlighted that the people in many predominantly Caucasian communities in NWI are really not that impressive overall as people, despite fitting into the generally more desirable Caucasian demographic.

First let me say I am not arguing the stats, they are what they are, and I don't mean to pick on your post in particular.

But I sometimes think that "safety" and "best schools" get weighted SO highly that every other factor in choosing a community gets drowned out. And I think most people do have a mental picture of a lot of other softer factors that really make or break a neighborhood for them.

I do find it very troubling that you are affirming the notion that a safe neighborhood = a caucasian neighborhood. Factors like average income, % rental units, and avg years of education play a significant role in determining a community's crime/school performance as opposed to racial mix. (As another poster points out)