Evanston Schools: Any experience with them? (Oak Park, Wilmette: condo, houses, magnet schools)

[chet everett]

I reread your original comment on the "we all use the public schools" and together with what you posted in the subsequent message I agree that you and I are saying they same thing -- for those that have the income / flexibility to either avail themselves of private schools OR move to a different town to enthusiastically support the Evanston Schools is "vote of confidence".


Personally I have had experience with ETHS and I have to admit that the given all the pluses and minuses of everything from the size and diversity of background to operations of the BOE I would prefer to send my kids to one of the other well rated high schools. If I had to choose a middle school and was just moving into the area I similarly would prefer a different district. However, when choosing an elementary district for a student entering kindergarten I would have less reservations. The reasons may seem a bit convuluted, but are not dissimilar from the logic I have used when suggesting similar things to people from outside the area considering Chicago / CPS. Basically when your childs starts kindergarten there is sort of a "cadre" of other parents that can show you the ropes, give your tips on how to find out if there are any special tensions at particular schools, and how to best work with the admistration to make sure that your childern as served as best they can be. To some extent this means that there may be other kids / parents in town that you are sort of working "at cross purposes" (if not in direct competition for resources), at least you can feel OK about the other trade-offs made to live in Evanston, and be confident that you know why you decided where your tax dollars are going...

I definately feel that an individual can have FAR more impact involved with their students Evanston than Chicago, though some of the 'tension' that I sort of hint at is literally not even on the radar at the high schools higher up on the list -- this is something that I think others have pointed out. To some this makes these schools more "bubble like" but in my experience it is far easier to "add on" real life experience for one's one children about "how the other half lives" than to struggle to ensure your childern are having the best possible experience... In the CPS hideous numbers of students are flat out "left behind" and frankly the same thing happens in a shocking number of suburban districts. In the "safest" of these area the students merely are unprepared for real college level work, and handicapped in their ability to take the sorts of courses that are most likely to lead to satisfiying lives, but in the worst the students are put into the broader world with fear and bad feelings toward the just about everyone.

Originally Posted by SloopyJ

I think we're on the same page, Chet. My comments about Evanston parents sending their kids to the public schools was meant in the context of, hey, these are doctors and lawyers and professors for whom education is likely to be of paramount importance, and they're all comfortable with Evanston schools (as opposed to private options). Of course Ford Heights parents will choose public schools; they don't have other choices. Affluent Evanston residents have private options, or they could pick up and move to Wilmette or Park Ridge or Western Springs.

So, again, we're on the same page here. Well-off kids with involved parents are very likely to do well in school, and my point was that I think Evanston schools offer a lot to those families and students. Simply put, privileged kids are likely to do as well in Evanston as they would anywhere else. And my point about finding lots of people like us in Evanston was simply mean to suggest that I'm not going out on a limb by making that claim.

[Costa Rica Chica]

I went to Haven Middle School and ETHS myself, and my son will probably be going to Oakton in a year for kindergarten. Evanston is a wonderful community in which to raise children, and I personally think the elementary schools are excellent. Oakton used to have a horrible reputation and now every parent I talk to has glowing comments and is totally in love with the school. It does have some of the lowest test scores in Evanston, but also has the highest increase in test scores over the past few years, coinciding with a new, ambitious principal who has done great things with the school.

ETHS certainly has both good and bad aspects. The resources there are amazing, and I had some fantastic teachers as well as horrible ones. I was totally prepared for college, I learned how to write and think analytically. Athletics, clubs, activities are amazing there.

Evanston schools are very inviting if you would like to visit. That's the best thing you can do - see how you feel inside the school itself.

[Lookout Kid]

Thanks CRC. Once again the frustration of school comparisons is setting in. It really seems to me that available data and lists have more to do with the mix and type of kids that go to each school more than the quality of education. And the fact that a minority of "disadvantaged" kids drive down scores and college preparedness measuring sticks means little to me, since my children do not come from a disadvantaged background. It's one thing if the culture of the disadvantaged youth dominates the school and drags it down, but I really don't think this is the case in a school system like Evanston's.

I personally went to a high school that I would call substandard. It wasn't a gang-infested danger zone or anything like that, but I felt unprepared for the level of my college coursework compared to kids from better high schools. I was near the top of my high school class, but the problem I had was that there just weren't enough in-depth difficult courses to challenge me, and the teachers were often not experts in the fields they were teaching. So when I evaluate high schools, the educational level of the teachers and the depth of advanced classes are important indicators. Colleges are evaluated this way, and high schools should be too.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Thanks CRC. Once again the frustration of school comparisons is setting in. It really seems to me that available data and lists have more to do with the mix and type of kids that go to each school more than the quality of education. And the fact that a minority of "disadvantaged" kids drive down scores and college preparedness measuring sticks means little to me, since my children do not come from a disadvantaged background. It's one thing if the culture of the disadvantaged youth dominates the school and drags it down, but I really don't think this is the case in a school system like Evanston's.

I personally went to a high school that I would call substandard. It wasn't a gang-infested danger zone or anything like that, but I felt unprepared for the level of my college coursework compared to kids from better high schools. I was near the top of my high school class, but the problem I had was that there just weren't enough in-depth difficult courses to challenge me, and the teachers were often not experts in the fields they were teaching. So when I evaluate high schools, the educational level of the teachers and the depth of advanced classes are important indicators. Colleges are evaluated this way, and high schools should be too.

Honestly LK I think CRC does a nice summary of several things: principals CAN do a lot of good or harm to an elementary school, there ARE a lots of involved parents in Evanston, large numbers of the kids whose parents are involved will likely do well, the schools, including ETHS do serve the kids in the upper tier classes pretty well.

The agonizing choice you face is really, with some one whose kids might be 8 or more years away from high school, don't know how the school is likely to change NOR where you children are likely to fall on the spectrum of success. Yes, there is some chance that the underperforming students may come to dominate the atmosphere in the future, but that chance is pretty slim. However there are towns where that chance is really close to zero, though there are other trade offs to living in such an area.

I would hope that you would be the kind of parent that would not just sit on your thumb if you sense that things are moving in the wrong direction, but instead work with the BOE to keep standards high. Though in a town the size of Evanston you must realize there are other forces that might be at work too...

Good Luck!

[SloopyJ]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

It really seems to me that available data and lists have more to do with the mix and type of kids that go to each school more than the quality of education. And the fact that a minority of "disadvantaged" kids drive down scores and college preparedness measuring sticks means little to me, since my children do not come from a disadvantaged background. It's one thing if the culture of the disadvantaged youth dominates the school and drags it down, but I really don't think this is the case in a school system like Evanston's.

I personally went to a high school that I would call substandard. It wasn't a gang-infested danger zone or anything like that, but I felt unprepared for the level of my college coursework compared to kids from better high schools. I was near the top of my high school class, but the problem I had was that there just weren't enough in-depth difficult courses to challenge me, and the teachers were often not experts in the fields they were teaching. So when I evaluate high schools, the educational level of the teachers and the depth of advanced classes are important indicators. Colleges are evaluated this way, and high schools should be too.

Excellent, sensible post. No matter what metric you use to compare schools, the socio-economic variables among student populations prevent apples-to-apples comparisons. And then there's the unquantifiable stuff, like whether there are benefits (or costs) to growing up and being educated in more diverse environments. I've heard anecdotally that the same kid, with the same scores, might have better luck with college applications coming out of Evanston - and better still from CPS - than he will from New Trier, for two reasons: 1) colleges like kids who are comfortable with diversity, and 2) there are too many New Trier kids applying for the same number of spots at selective colleges. If that's true, and it may or may not be, then a fair question is still whether that same kid WOULD have the same scores and depth of education if he went to New Trier, Evanston, or CPS. Chet will argue no way, but I don't think there's any real way to know.

[chet everett]

Actually I know a little about the college admission process and I would NOT say "no way" to kids from ANY school having a leg up -- in the most extreme situation I can imagine that a talented student that might be "lost in the crowd" of equally talented students might attract more attention if they (and their family) made an effort to stand out in a less well known school, though there is a real risk that without something truly unique to distinguish them AND a solid record of accomplishment on nationally normed test that plan would back fire...

In the immediate case, of two EQUALLY qualified students with IDENTICAL entrance credentials I know that the ETHS student would NOT really be competing head-to-head with only students from the other Illinois schools, but students in similar suburban schools through out the country. In such cases the wee bit more "grittyness" that Evanston has is worth NOTHING compared to some kid some out of a exceptional school in someplace where the grit is very different:
Stuyvesant High School: Best High Schools - USNews.com
Bronx High School of Science School: Best High Schools - USNews.com
Lennox Mathematics, Science, and Technology Academy: Best High Schools - USNews.com

[Costa Rica Chica]

ETHS is so huge that a lot of the competition comes from within. For example, in a class of 800+ students, most of the top 20 apply to the Ivy schools and they will only accept a certain number of kids from each school. The year I graduated, the valedictorian and the saludatorian went to Harvard. The number 10 ranked kid might have had far better grades, more activities, etc. than a kid from another school - but doesn't get in because of the sheer number of kids who apply from ETHS. Does that make sense?

LK, test scores can be a good indicator but they aren't always. And I think what you say is really true - you don't want your kid to be in a class with kids who won't let him focus because there are so many behavior problems. I really think talking to other parents and visiting the school are the best way to get a feeling for what really goes on. I am planning on putting my child into the TWI (two way immersion) program which is offered in several Evanston elementary schools, and I have heard wonderful things about this program too.

Fwiw, it's a frustrating and daunting experience even when you live in Evanston. You might not know where your child is going until a few days before classes start.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Costa Rica Chica

You might not know where your child is going until a few days before classes start.

Can you clarify? Are you saying that neighborhood attendance boundaries don't always apply?

In Oak Park if you live within an attendance boundary, you go to that school. They do gerrymander the attendance boundaries a bit to help with racial integration, but I think the idea in Oak Park is that the primary integration efforts occur at the housing level, not the school level.

[mh7]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Actually I know a little about the college admission process and I would NOT say "no way" to kids from ANY school having a leg up -- in the most extreme situation I can imagine that a talented student that might be "lost in the crowd" of equally talented students might attract more attention if they (and their family) made an effort to stand out in a less well known school, though there is a real risk that without something truly unique to distinguish them AND a solid record of accomplishment on nationally normed test that plan would back fire...

In the immediate case, of two EQUALLY qualified students with IDENTICAL entrance credentials I know that the ETHS student would NOT really be competing head-to-head with only students from the other Illinois schools, but students in similar suburban schools through out the country. In such cases the wee bit more "grittyness" that Evanston has is worth NOTHING compared to some kid some out of a exceptional school in someplace where the grit is very different:
Stuyvesant High School: Best High Schools - USNews.com
Bronx High School of Science School: Best High Schools - USNews.com
Lennox Mathematics, Science, and Technology Academy: Best High Schools - USNews.com

You really can't compare places like stuyvesant or bronx hs to any open enrollment school though. Stuyvesant has around 26,000 applicants per year & takes the top 3% or so...college admissions people are keenly aware of that type of competition and take that into account.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Honestly LK I think CRC does a nice summary of several things: principals CAN do a lot of good or harm to an elementary school, there ARE a lots of involved parents in Evanston, large numbers of the kids whose parents are involved will likely do well, the schools, including ETHS do serve the kids in the upper tier classes pretty well.

The agonizing choice you face is really, with some one whose kids might be 8 or more years away from high school, don't know how the school is likely to change NOR where you children are likely to fall on the spectrum of success. Yes, there is some chance that the underperforming students may come to dominate the atmosphere in the future, but that chance is pretty slim. However there are towns where that chance is really close to zero, though there are other trade offs to living in such an area.

I would hope that you would be the kind of parent that would not just sit on your thumb if you sense that things are moving in the wrong direction, but instead work with the BOE to keep standards high. Though in a town the size of Evanston you must realize there are other forces that might be at work too...

Good Luck!

It is tough. We want to live in a suburb with "traditional town planning", in that it is walkable, has a vibrant commercial component, and has a certain level of density. We would like to stay within 15 miles of the Loop, and have great train access. And we really like the culture of places like Evanston and Oak Park. At this point we feel our choices are (in our price range): Evanston, Park Ridge, Oak Park, La Grange, and La Grange Park. My wife has come out pretty strongly against Park Ridge, so that is likely to be eliminated. La Grange, and the area (including Western Springs and La Grange Park) does have one Metra train, but lacks the CTA--and seems to be less of a cultural fit for us. Brookfield has some appeal, but we just can't get enthusiastic about living there at all--and the areas near the Metra stop are not that interesting to us.

All of this is leaving us with three mega high-schools to consider: Oak Park and River Forest, Evanston Township, and Lyons Township. I know there are some LTHS boosters on this board, but I am unconvinced that this school offers tremendous advantages over OPRF and ETHS. And those multi-suburb conglomeration schools are perhaps MORE vulnerable to racial and socio-economic change in the long run in the manner of Proviso West. La Grange and Western Springs seem unlikely to change any time soon, but I can't say the same thing about Hodgkins, Indianhead Park, Countryside, etc. I'm not saying that I think LTHS is going downhill or anything like that, but it is not less vulnerable to change than ETHS and OPRF as far as I'm concerned--and I do have a long time horizon to consider since I will soon have two children under the age of two. That said, there is some likelihood that we will move again before our kids are high school age, so elementaries are the PRIMARY concern at this point. But we also don't want to be forced to move if the high school doesn't work out.