Why does Chicago have such a shabby TAXI fleet? (Atkinson: tax, versus)

[Smedskjaer]

Hybrids do their best when cruising, not in stop-and-go traffic.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Smedskjaer

Hybrids do their best when cruising, not in stop-and-go traffic.

I had always heard hybrids get better mileage in the City than on the highway.

But this makes it seem a bit more complex, with "cruising" not exactly addressing the above (unless you tend to go 35 or 40 on the highway, which will get you killed around here).

Better Gas Mileage in a Toyota Prius | Hybrid Cars

but also keep in mind that while hybrids may not be "best" while in stop-and-go, they clearly are far superior in that mode than your average car.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by Smedskjaer

Hybrids do their best when cruising, not in stop-and-go traffic.

Not true. While they tend to see gains in both, they derive most of their benefit from the regenerative braking of stop-and-go traffic. In fact you will sometimes see a hybrid's EPA mileage rating is higher for the city cycle than the highway cycle. Taxis are in fact very good candidates for hybrid vehicles, which is why we're gradually seeing more hybrid cabs here. And the cab companies/owners are doing it of their own initiatve, not because of some government decree. That alone highly suggests that hybrids are suitable for the task.

[linicx]

I find this entire discussion funny. Thirty years ago Honda had a car on American roads that averaged 50 mph. If the politicians had considered this then - we wouldn't be having this discussion today. I belive I read in the last couple of years that Ford has had a smaller car in Argentina that runs on a sugar based fuel for some time. If you can do it on sugar, why not corn?

[Drover]

Originally Posted by linicx

I find this entire discussion funny. Thirty years ago Honda had a car on American roads that averaged 50 mph. If the politicians had considered this then - we wouldn't be having this discussion today. I belive I read in the last couple of years that Ford has had a smaller car in Argentina that runs on a sugar based fuel for some time. If you can do it on sugar, why not corn?

This is getting a little far afield, but... you can do it on corn -- ethanol is ethanol and an engine designed to run it doesn't care whether it came from corn or sugar. The question isn't "why not corn" but "at what price?" Ethanol production is very heavily subsidized right now, and corn is the primary source for ethanol in the U.S. But it doesn't come without its tradeoffs, such as 1: the energy inputs are greater than the energy output (which is true for any energy equation but at least with fossil fuels mother nature has already done most of the energy inputs for us), and 2: there are crucial competing uses not only for the raw material to make ethanol but the land used to grow the raw materials. Ethanol production is putting a lot of price pressure on staple grains not just because we're burning some of it for fuel but because land production is shifting from food grains to fuel grains. And the government subsidies are substantially distorting those price signals.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Drover

This is getting a little far afield, but... you can do it on corn -- ethanol is ethanol and an engine designed to run it doesn't care whether it came from corn or sugar. The question isn't "why not corn" but "at what price?" Ethanol production is very heavily subsidized right now, and corn is the primary source for ethanol in the U.S. But it doesn't come without its tradeoffs, such as 1: the energy inputs are greater than the energy output (which is true for any energy equation but at least with fossil fuels mother nature has already done most of the energy inputs for us), and 2: there are crucial competing uses not only for the raw material to make ethanol but the land used to grow the raw materials. Ethanol production is putting a lot of price pressure on staple grains not just because we're burning some of it for fuel but because land production is shifting from food grains to fuel grains. And the government subsidies are substantially distorting those price signals.

it's not just subsidies that are the problem with using corn for fuel, it's that you're driving up the cost of food.

also, many studies have demonstrated that it takes more energy inputs than energy produced to make a gallon of gas using plant materials. even the dept of agriculture (most squarely in bed with Cargill, ADM, etc) admits this here:

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pd...QV2zsZvg&pli=1

The major reason people (without a financial interest) support biofuels are that it gets off the petro-dictator supply chain, which is worth considering.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Drover

Not true. While they tend to see gains in both, they derive most of their benefit from the regenerative braking of stop-and-go traffic. In fact you will sometimes see a hybrid's EPA mileage rating is higher for the city cycle than the highway cycle. Taxis are in fact very good candidates for hybrid vehicles, which is why we're gradually seeing more hybrid cabs here. And the cab companies/owners are doing it of their own initiatve, not because of some government decree. That alone highly suggests that hybrids are suitable for the task.

That is what I thought as well, but check out that link I posted, it seems to contradict that, even though it still supports better mileage in urban areas than on the highway.

Interesting stuff, will be fascinating to see where the field ends up in 10 years in terms of electric vehicles, battery tech improvements, potentially using solar-powered charging stations, etc

[paytonc]

Originally Posted by Smedskjaer

Cabs aren't prime candidates for hybridization. The distance they drive every day would discharge a battery before lunch. The one caveat would be engine control technology to keep the engine acceleration smooth and in the efficient band. Maybe a mild hybrid system to aid in acceleration from a standstill.

Originally Posted by Smedskjaer

Hybrids do their best when cruising, not in stop-and-go traffic.

I think you might have confused pure-electric and hybrid-electric cars. By definition, a hybrid runs the engine "smooth and in the efficient band" and recharges the battery both from the gas engine and from braking -- which means that they do better in stop-and-go.

Originally Posted by linicx

Ford has had a smaller car in Argentina that runs on a sugar based fuel for some time.

A great many US-built cars can run on E85 -- fuel that's 85% ethanol, which in this country almost always comes from corn. Some gas stations out there sell E85, but not many. During the oil crisis, Brazil made a big push to have cars fueled by E85; they refine it from sugarcane, and it's almost universally available at Brazilian gas stations.

[jwaiter]

Wasn't sure if this was posted already, seems pertinent to this discussion...

Chicago Will Pay Cab Companies to Go Green: Chicagoist

[Smedskjaer]

More wasted tax payer money.
Chicago should stop spending, even on these good ideas.