If Chicago is bad off, who isn't? (Springfield, Cicero: leasing, buying)

[linicx]

You have to live in the bible belt to really understand local politics and who stirs the pot over national issues.

[sunnyandcloudydays]

Originally Posted by linicx

You have to live in the bible belt to really understand local politics and who stirs the pot over national issues.

That would be interesting to live in the bible belt for a bit.

Not that I would want to take up a full time address but it would be a bit interesting to see how far they stretch the truth and manipulate the public.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by yoyoniner

No offense edsg, but your solution to all of this, "end tax breaks for the rich," is an old, tired mantra that doesn't solve anything. Just think about it. It just makes the rich poorer. This isn't heartless its just reality. Unless, of course, you have a childlike trust in the people who work in the government sector to not use all that new wealth to enrich themselves and keep themselves in power. Maybe in a perfect world but not in this one.

Especially being from Illinois, how could you possibly believe that there won't be powerful individuals in government who would be any less greedy and power hungry with all that increased money that apparently you want to hand over to them, than the multitude of individuals who are the origin of their revenue. History is not on your side at all.

i ask for fairness in taxation. not to "soak the rich".

the rich do not reinvest in the economy when they have low taxes; they shelter that money.

during the 1950s, when america was healthiest, the rich were taxed at a much higher rate. as a result, they pumped the money they had back into their businesses, knowing otherwise it would be lost to taxation.

you are suggesting "voodoo economics" a la Reagan. Even George HW Walker got that one right when he so labeled it.

Trickle down does not and cannot work. What works is that the average joe has money in his pockets and he spends it to keep the economy greased. An old capitalist, Henry Ford, knew this when he noted that he wanted workers with enough money to buy his cars.

Nobody "creates" jobs. Jobs come into existence when a need is shown. When there is more money in circulation, jobs grow to meet the need.

The very rich you tout keep their money off shore totally sheltered. Please tell me how that helps me or anyone else. Loop hole is their middle names.

yoy, our nation is either going to find a way to adjust taxation to fair levels and end the discrepency between rich and poor.....the largest in any developed nation peacefully.....or we will have revolution. and that scares the crap out of me.

functional societies like Sweden have some of the smallest gap between rich and poor. These societies function and do so well without the social problems and disruption of wide gaps between the two.

I'd tell you the same thing as I said to Chet: if we don't end these current inequities (about the worst in our history), everybody loses; the system crashes.

and I'll tell you the same thing I said to Chet:

if you want to defend the rich (who have manuvered everything to their benefit for over half a century), be my guest. I just have to wonder if you guys have a clue what is happening in America today. and how explosive our issues are.

[yoyoniner]

^

You didn't answer my question though. If you increase taxes on the rich that makes them poorer and the government richer because that is the direct, immediate transaction. It is then totally up to powerful individuals in government to use that money wisely for others who are less fortunate, and not for themselves or their friends.

That's a lot of faith and sainthood to pedestal some very powerful people edsg that I might add you do not even know. What makes you believe that will be the case, especially being from this state where at least some of the most corrupt, money and power hungry people actually do work for Government Inc. or have very close ties with them. It's not like people that work for corporations=bad, people that work for government=good (like liberals tend to want to believe), or the other way around (like conservatives want to believe). There are greedy, power hungry people everywhere and honestly government, by its very nature, tends to attract many of them. These are the people you want to transfer the wealth to. Don't lie to yourself, it doesn't go directly to the "needy" it has to go to the powerful first.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by yoyoniner

^

You didn't answer my question though. If you increase taxes on the rich that makes them poorer and the government richer because that is the direct, immediate transaction. It is then totally up to powerful individuals in government to use that money wisely for others who are less fortunate, and not for themselves or their friends.

That's a lot of faith and sainthood to pedestal some very powerful people edsg that I might add you do not even know. What makes you believe that will be the case, especially being from this state where at least some of the most corrupt, money and power hungry people actually do work for Government Inc. or have very close ties with them. It's not like people that work for corporations=bad, people that work for government=good (like liberals tend to want to believe), or the other way around (like conservatives want to believe). There are greedy, power hungry people everywhere and honestly government, by its very nature, tends to attract many of them. These are the people you want to transfer the wealth to. Don't lie to yourself, it doesn't go directly to the "needy" it has to go to the powerful first.

yoyoniner, i don't even know how to reach you inside that bubble of yours.

first of all, i have only asked for one thing: let the rich pay their fair share. They don't. And even many of the wealthiest admit that the system has been rigged for their benefit. Warren Buffet famously said, "There is class warfare going on right now. And my side is winning." We have the reverse of a graduated taxation system today where the rich actually pay less a percentage of their income than those poorer than themselves. And many, like Buffet, admit this is true.

The absurd tax break for the rich ran out (I believe it was last year). By doing nothing, they would have disappeared. But they were extended by Congress through the power of the very wealthy who own it.

t's not like people that work for corporations=bad, people that work for government=good (like liberals tend to want to believe)

I'm liberal. I'm progressive. And I don't know one liberal or progressive who thinks the way you describe. Where on earth do you get such ideas. Progressives favor real, old time competitive capitalism, not the form of fascist state-and-corporation-in-concert capitalism-on-steroids we have today.

We also wish for our goods and most of the services we receive to be handled by private enterprise. We neither want our government to build our cars nor own our theatres.

We wish for government to be the institution of the commons, of the things any society has a right to give itself: police and fire protection, a good education for our children, a solid infrastructure that does not crumble under our eyes, public transportation priced reasonably to lessen the insanity of car clogged roads, social security for our senior years, the ability to get reasonably priced basic medical care (a human right, if ever there was one), our food and water to be safe, our environment to be protected, our banks to be regulated, a system of justice that really works.

These are all part of the commons.

Liberals hate the notion of communism or even its less toxic sister, socialism. We ask for a "social agenda", a safety net, the things that make a society work. And then those who would wish the people ill conflate "social agenda" with "socialism" as they use every trick in the book to hide the truth.

You talk in terms of liberal and conservative. Do you have any idea of how these are turning into old paradigms? Liberal and conservative for the luxury of an older era when resources were greatly and life easier to pull off (for this reason, I view myself more "progressive" than "liberal", defining progressive a being for the things that advances society and all people). They don't hold up today because they don't work. No -ism works; an -ism is doctronaire and doctronaire just doesn't work with real people. Today the Tea Party and OWS swing so far apart from each other around the circle that they are actually meeting up at the opposite end. Many goals they face in common, including the influence of corporations on American life.

Today the only divisions that we have are between functional and dysfunctional, practical and impractical. We either find a way that works or we're screwed. And the way things work will not be tied to any -ism or philosophy.

here are greedy, power hungry people everywhere and honestly government, by its very nature, tends to attract many of them. These are the people you want to transfer the wealth to. Don't lie to yourself, it doesn't go directly to the "needy" it has to go to the powerful first.

people are not institutions. the nature of man (whatever it may be) affects every institution that is out there. Both "government" and "private enterprise" are neutral terms. Both can run the gamut between running well and smoothly and fairly to being totally corrupted.

Neither government nor private enterprise has a monopoly on "being corrupted"; neither has a form of magical nature that allows corruption to be stronger within it than it does in anything else. All institutions are subject to corruption. It is not the nature of the institution but the nature of man that will lead to corruption in any institution as well as the nature of man that can it can weed out that corruption and make things work again.

Government works well when the people control it. But we don't. Elections are expensive today that a candidate almost by necessity needs to sell himself to the highest bidder to get elected. And that highest bidder comes with deep pockets.

You want to end corruption in politics? You can't; every institution is subject to some level of corruption. But you can take a swing some 170° in the right direction by merely publicly financing congressional and presidential campaigns. The cost? Approximately $10 per tax payer. The result: our candidates become answerable to the people, not the powers-that-be, the big corporations.

It's as simple as that. And Congress will never pass such a law because they know its true. Nor will our corrupt Supreme Court change their notion that corporations are people and that the money they spend is just "free speech".

In a better world (and nation) than this is, the issues of corruption in Chicago and Illinois government would be important. But like an analogy I made earlier, today tinkering with both of them is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

And besides, corruption has seeped into municipal and state government around the nation. Look at our friends up in Wisconsin who came out 100,000 strong in Madison on a daily basis to protest it in their state government. The recall of Scott Walker is a very, very real posibility.

And look at our friends in NYC. They are led by an illegal mayor who stretched the city's term limits to stay in power. A man who made his fortune as one of the richest men in the nation and yet puts his thumb down on the very protesters who are hurting big time due to the illegal actions of men just like Bloomberg.

NYC is hurting. Big time. Just like Chicago. The vast majority of its citizens live in a city with the very type of business friendly climate some here seem to enshrine as the masses of the city suffer with horrendous tax increases, loss of services, and jobs that disappear. Approximately 30,000 people, a staggering number (on a Thursday night yet) were out protesting all over Lower Manhattan and on the Brooklyn Bridge. These are people who are hurting or, if not hurting, are out there because their nation is hurting. And as for the success of cities, I pity NYC. That is one town in a terrible position. Finance once represented some 8% of this nation's GNP; today it is close to 40%. No city in the nation more benefitted from the obscene and ridiculous rise of finance (which produces nothing and serves only to grease the wheels of commerce by making money available....which it doesn't even do any more in the casino world of Wall Street). Finance has reached its limits, its destructive limits, and will be scaled back (by necessity) to the reasonable level it once had. And with that collapse will come endless heart ache for New York which put is eggs into the financial basket as Detroit once did with the automotive industry.

They are mirrored by people all over the nation, finally saying "enough". Critical mass has been reached because our problems are so massive. It is organic and it was bound to happen. The emperor wears no clothes.

yoyoniner, i have no way of reaching you (just like i have no way of reaching climate change deniers, people who think evolution is fiction, folks who believe Obama was born in Kenya, people who think BP got a bad rap, people who think all Muslims are terrorists and are out to destroy us) as I have no way of reaching chet (and gave up even trying). you live under an American bubble. Once that bubble had a thick enough skin that we could all delude ourselves to think what we saw as real was real. Heck, when times appeared "good", I have to admit that even I was still somewhat drawn into its tinsel cover.

But reality stares us in the face today, a nation in crisis. And a world in crisis for the very type of global economy and corporate rule through government that one nation more than any other, the United States, fostered on this depleated planet in little more than a half century. A nation with 5% of the world's population that uses 25% of its resources, resources that are running out rapidly along with the quality of environment with which they so weakly coexist.

yet even in this mess, older and more rational lands still get it right, keeping the gap between their richest and poorest citizens at a small range, taxing their people (most of whom are glad to pay the taxes) so that they can offer a quality of life on social network issues: health care, free education from kindergarden to graduate school (unlike our deep in debt US college graduates today who can't even use their education to get a job that isn't there), good infrastructure, well regulated food, etc. Indeed every advanced nation in the world but one...the United States....has comprehensive health care for its citizens and outlaws financial benefit to be made for basic health care, which is basically a human right or should be (plastic surgery and other elective forms of non--basic coverage still rightfully belong to private enterprise)And, yes, yoyoniner, I do believe that people actually can be enriched through paying more in taxation if that money is spent well and is sufficently large enough to do the job. And I'm damned proud to say I believe that. I would gladly pay more in taxes for better schools, safe infrastructure, and many of the other commons that improves my life and the life of others

That's the reality out there. You can ignore it. But those nations thrive compared to ours. And in ours, millions of folks don't buy the BS you believe and are so acting upon it right now. This genie isn't going back in any bottle.

I write a lot (too much actually) because I am f**king passionate on the issues. I have followed them religiously for decades, seeing the country I love descend into a hell I can't even recognize.

In my youth, I lived in a nation with good schools, a robust middle class, corporations doing well (as they were dong the right thing), a sense of community, and a wonderful safety net. And, yes, despite any denial you may register, I saw a time when government was able to function very well and actually go a long way to building a better society.Problems were there, of course; they always are. But truth be known, that nation I remember has no connection with the one that it has become. Or, at least, that is what I thought until I saw the American people finally start to wake up.

and as they wake up and grow as a force (as they now do), they won't be carrying out your agenda, yoyoniner, or chet's. You can stick to your beliefs, stick up for the rich, all you want, but you are in the process of becoming dinosaurs in this era of incredible change we are now merely at the cusp of being upon.

Stick to your beliefs, yoyoniner. You are set in your ways and don't open your eyes. Nobody here or elsewhere is going to reach you. We can't even talk because we are not only not on the same page; we're not even in the same book.

[edsg25]

There has been a lot of discussion here about corruption in the city of Chicago and the state of Illinois and the adverse effect it has on business.

I think I've made my point very clear on this issue:

1. corruption on any level of government is wrong and is serious. Chicago and Illinois have earned reputations down through the decades for their fair share of corruption. Certainly the perception that this has been the case has been there.

2. corruption in Chgo and IL, as serious as it is, carries far less weight in a nation whose federal government is as corrupt as it is and a nation in deep trouble today (cities and states are not our main economic units and work mainly within the federal framework.

3. I am no expert or even as well informed as I'd like to be on the subject of Chicago and Illinois corruption. Others can run rings around me on that discussion.

4. Corruption has sunk well into municipal and state governments across the nation. It is part of the culture. It would be difficult to have corruption free or even low corruption cities and states when the national government is so corrupt.

Saying this though, I have no idea of how our cities and states compare to each other as to how corrupt they are.

I'm told by people here, Chet in particular, that Chicago and Illinois are the poster children for corruption among cities and states.

Maybe that is true. Maybe it isn't.

So I'm asking someone....anyone....to give me a link to an objective rating system that compares with cities with each other and states with each other as to degree of corruption. I'd like the link to be well documented and to measure by measurable variables, providing the proper numbers.

Corruption is a very bad thing. Chet tells me it is particularly bad in Chicago and Illinois and if it shows up that both city and state are at the high end of the corruption list, that's worth paying attention to.

But without that list, without it being properly documented and being capable of being proved reliable, it seems I'm operating on Chet's perceptions. Now admittedly Chet has given plenty of evidence here that he is immersed enough in Chgo and IL government to be able to converse about it fleuently. But that doesn't mean he has provided any reliable yad stick as to how we match up to others.

Without the yard stick, I'd have to ask: isn't this a futile exercise in comparison, one that carries no meaning?

[chet everett]

No it is you have no "yardstick"!

How in the name of anything can you claim there is some kind of parity between the corruption that exists in national politics as there in Illinois??? Who are the corrupt leaders of the Senate? Reid? What corrupt acts have been perpetrated in the House? Do you even know who it's leaders are?


Is DesMoines, Madison, St. Paul or Indianopolis as corrupt as Springfield? GET REAL! You are kidding your self if you think there is ANYTHING LIKE the single minded effort to fleece taxpayers going on in those states as there is Illinois!

You DISGUST ME with the BLIND EYE you turn toward the UNDENIABLE FACT THAT VOTERS IN THIS STATE CONTINUE TO ELECT SCUM THAT LIE TO THEIR FACES, ROB FROM THEIR CHILDREN, AND FOSTER THE INNANE ANTICS OF LUNATICS THAT THROW MOLATOV COCKTAILS AT POLICE OFFICERS, HARARASS LITTLE CHILDREN ON THEIR WAY TO SCHOOL AND FOSTER THE ANARARCY THAT THE CLAIM FRIGHTENS THEM!

Deonounce the lawlessness of OWS!

Disavow the lunacy of the tired old terrorists of 40 years ago that bombed federal buildings!

Chicago and Illinois will suffer more until enough voters WAKE THE HECK UP and vote for people that are for law and order NOT favoritism and corruption.

If you had half as much "passion" about the TRUE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS facing Illinois / Chicago as you do in living onnthe fantasy world of the bums taunting brick walls and blocking subways MAYBE you have a chance at seeing that things are not FUTILE if you work but a little effort into finding out things that you ADMIT you "do not know"...

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by chet everett

No it is you have no "yardstick"!

How in the name of anything can you claim there is some kind of parity between the corruption that exists in national politics as there in Illinois??? Who are the corrupt leaders of the Senate? Reid? What corrupt acts have been perpetrated in the House? Do you even know who it's leaders are?


Is DesMoines, Madison, St. Paul or Indianopolis as corrupt as Springfield? GET REAL! You are kidding your self if you think there is ANYTHING LIKE the single minded effort to fleece taxpayers going on in those states as there is Illinois!

You DISGUST ME with the BLIND EYE you turn toward the UNDENIABLE FACT THAT VOTERS IN THIS STATE CONTINUE TO ELECT SCUM THAT LIE TO THEIR FACES, ROB FROM THEIR CHILDREN, AND FOSTER THE INNANE ANTICS OF LUNATICS THAT THROW MOLATOV COCKTAILS AT POLICE OFFICERS, HARARASS LITTLE CHILDREN ON THEIR WAY TO SCHOOL AND FOSTER THE ANARARCY THAT THE CLAIM FRIGHTENS THEM!

Deonounce the lawlessness of OWS!

Disavow the lunacy of the tired old terrorists of 40 years ago that bombed federal buildings!

Chicago and Illinois will suffer more until enough voters WAKE THE HECK UP and vote for people that are for law and order NOT favoritism and corruption.

If you had half as much "passion" about the TRUE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS facing Illinois / Chicago as you do in living onnthe fantasy world of the bums taunting brick walls and blocking subways MAYBE you have a chance at seeing that things are not FUTILE if you work but a little effort into finding out things that you ADMIT you "do not know"...

that's nice, sweetheart. most compelling in a sort of hissy-fit way. now, chet baby, can you tell me where i can get measurable evidence that Chicago and Illinois are more corrupt than other cities or states, or should I (1) take your word for it, (2) go with conventional wisdom and perception or (3) look at the way the stars are aligned in the sky? Without "proof", sorry, I'm not buying.

You DISGUST ME

You've brought joy to my life to know I can be of such service. My mission on this planet is complete.

Do you even know who it's leaders are?

Kim, Kourtney, and Khloe Kardashian? You gotta love aliteration and those million dollar plus fake weddings that keep the economy going. hey, it's why we give tax breaks to the rich.

that you ADMIT you "do not know"

never had any of that book laernin' and sipherin' what kan eye say?

Who are the corrupt leaders of the Senate? Reid? What corrupt acts have been perpetrated in the House?

well, obviously in chetthink, Pelosi would come to mind when i think about pure evil in the House; you know, the wicked witch of the west, the woman you love to hate (doesn't get much more evil than San Francisco for you guys, does it?)

bums taunting brick walls and blocking subways

as Marie Antoniette would say, "terrible when the rabble rises up and let them eat ketchup (the reagan administration called it a vegetable)

chet, sweetie, there are three places you don't want to be:

(1) a French aristocrat having a conversation 5 years before the storming of the bastille

(2) a southern plantation aristocrat having a conversation 5 years before ft. sumter was being attacked

(3) a russian aristocrat having a conversation 5 years before the winter palace was attacked.

you're all all three places, chet, removed from reality and angry with the very people who are going to take back this country (look at how OWS grows and grows and support for it increases). You're out of sync man.

But stay in your delusional state of denial.

Have a great day, chetty; you definitely made mine.

[cubssoxfan]

You DISGUST ME with the BLIND EYE you turn toward the UNDENIABLE FACT THAT VOTERS IN THIS STATE CONTINUE TO ELECT SCUM THAT LIE TO THEIR FACES, ROB FROM THEIR CHILDREN, AND FOSTER THE INNANE ANTICS OF LUNATICS THAT THROW MOLATOV COCKTAILS AT POLICE OFFICERS, HARARASS LITTLE CHILDREN ON THEIR WAY TO SCHOOL AND FOSTER THE ANARARCY THAT THE CLAIM FRIGHTENS THEM!

Uninformed voters basing decisions on 30 second TV commercials where candidates can slander one another without recourse. Or, "My union endorsed this guy and I want my piece of the pie."

first of all, i have only asked for one thing: let the rich pay their fair share. They don't. And even many of the wealthiest admit that the system has been rigged for their benefit. Warren Buffet famously said, "There is class warfare going on right now. And my side is winning." We have the reverse of a graduated taxation system today where the rich actually pay less a percentage of their income than those poorer than themselves. And many, like Buffet, admit this is true.

The BS of more money in the pockets of the very wealthy will create enough jobs to lift us out of economic doldrums. And the Repug candidates distracting middle class voters with social issues that infringe on one's privacy and liberty.

I am angry and fed up with BOTH parties, BOTH state and national government and the oligopoly BOTH parties have on power that enables them to line their own pockets at our expense!

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by edsg25

Saying this though, I have no idea of how our cities and states compare to each other as to how corrupt they are.

I'm told by people here, Chet in particular, that Chicago and Illinois are the poster children for corruption among cities and states.

Maybe that is true. Maybe it isn't.

So I'm asking someone....anyone....to give me a link to an objective rating system that compares with cities with each other and states with each other as to degree of corruption. I'd like the link to be well documented and to measure by measurable variables, providing the proper numbers.

There are loads of different ways to judge corruption, and there are plenty of different comparisons out there.

In 2007 Corporate Crime Reporter did a comparison of Federal corruption convictions and put Illinois at #6 - behind Louisiana (1), Mississippi (2), Kentucky (3), Alabama (4) and Ohio (5).


USA Today did a basic comparison of per-capita public corruption convictions the federal government won from 1998 through 2007. Illinois came in at #18.

The Daily Beast did one that used Convictions of elected and other public officials investigated by federal agents, organized crime convictions investigated by federal agents, arrest numbers for producing or distributing fake money and goods, arrests for false statements or documents produced for personal gain over a 10-year period, and embezzlement. Illinois came in at #47.

Even just anecdotally Illinois doesn't have the worst reputation. Louisiana and New Jersey are (rightfully) the competitors for that. If you think Blago is bad, take a look at Ernie FLetcher in Kentucky, he's right up there with Blago. During an investigation in which 9 of his administration officials had been indicted (with plenty more to follow) he issued a blanket pardon to "any and all persons who have committed, or may be accused of committing, any offense" with regard to the investigation.

Rhode Island has been better in recent years, but read up on Buddy Cianci if you want to see what real corruption is. He makes Illinois politicians look like choir boys. Although Betty Loren Maltese could hold her own with him.

This doesn't excuse corruption in Illinois, it certainly needs to be rooted out, but saying Illinois is the "most corrupt" just shows ignorance about the rest of the country.