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Old 11-17-2011, 09:15 AM
 
21,772 posts, read 37,293,575 times
Reputation: 10751

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The funny thing about using NYC as a "model" is that it already has far greater concentrations of wealth than any other US city...

If you look at the data about undoing any tax cuts there is no way that such a thing does anything to releive any concentration of wealth, in fact if the bracket creep is accurate you actually end up capturing an even greater percentage of "wages / payroll" type income and THAT is clearly not any 1% of earners...

My contention remains unchained: Chicago is worse off than other urban areas precisely because of the endemic corruption. Look at the ridiculousness of the "Inspector General" proposal -- the City Council wants NO investigative in that office and wants to hear about the findings first, how will that do anything to root out corruption?

There are HUGE differences between NY and Chicago. Guiliani came from the Prosecutors office -- although Daley was Cook Co States Attorney prior to being Mayor in Illinois that office is pretty much exclusively about street crime. The only significant corruption prosecuotions have been done by US Attorney Office. In NY even the State Attoeney General goes after white collar crime and corruption. Illinois has a AG that is literally the "favorite daughter" of the single most responsible for corruption Speaker of the House, lil' Lisa is not up to "spanking" Poppa Mike. Heck, what kind of person what send their kid's grandpa to prison?

If Rahm wanted to let CPS use milions looked up in TIF districts created to reward connected firms he could do that with a pen stroke. He could also increase property taxes for both the operation of the City, and the Park District, and CPS, BUT he likely will do no such thing as it would anger the hordes of city employees forced to live inside the limits of his domain. For folks like Rahm, who can afford to send their kids to private schools and have the time to drive em all across the city their is no real reason to make the schools better ...

State funded elections are a pipe dream that wil never happen. As it is Obama prefers not to use federal Election Funds as he then has far less restrictions on how he collects his war chest. The whole idea that any Illinois machine poliitician would ever let go of the power of their deep pockets in elections is unthinkable.

Voters have to punch the ballots to send home the jokers that have used their massive donations from both unions and connected firms that supply the state with overpriced roads, inflated construction costs, poorly performing financial advise, and generally crappy / inflated goods & services to outspend their opponents on juvenile / negative ads that appeal to undereducated voters..

 
Old 11-17-2011, 09:42 AM
 
97 posts, read 48,782 times
Reputation: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
i don't know; how about by gettting rid of those tax cuts the rich have been getting for over ten years?

by what law would I prevent it? chet, do you realize that the rich have literally bought this government, lock, stock, and barrel.

what do you think citizens united was about? corporate citizenship? are you serious?

how would I prevent wealth from being concentrated? Well, I would publicly finance all elections. For mere pennies per american, we can take big money out of politics and prevent the corporations and the lobbyists from calling the shot.

I don't know, chet. at this point I really am exhausted. I can't answer you anymore because, to be honest, this conversation has gotten me very depressed. I am following what is happening in the United States, how many people are outraged by conditions and then I come here and end up getting into a conversation with you that starts with "By what law / principle / ethical system would you prevent wealth from being concentrated? "

You have no idea how crushing it is just to read such line.

I said I was getting out of this thread before. I didn't stick to my guns. This time I hope I do. Talking to you, chet, is like an assault on the soul; i can't do this anymore.
No offense edsg, but your solution to all of this, "end tax breaks for the rich," is an old, tired mantra that doesn't solve anything. Just think about it. It just makes the rich poorer. This isn't heartless its just reality. Unless, of course, you have a childlike trust in the people who work in the government sector to not use all that new wealth to enrich themselves and keep themselves in power. Maybe in a perfect world but not in this one.

Especially being from Illinois, how could you possibly believe that there won't be powerful individuals in government who would be any less greedy and power hungry with all that increased money that apparently you want to hand over to them, than the multitude of individuals who are the origin of their revenue. History is not on your side at all.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
10,856 posts, read 15,218,880 times
Reputation: 5385
Chicago is a mega city. it is no worse off than LA or NYC or any other city of its size. Factually, says my friendly Chicago mortgage person, it is starting to recover from the housing fiasco.
. Nearly half of the Fortune 500 companies pay no US tax but they gladly pay a larger foreign tax because it is subsidized. Globally they they free skate and enjoy the fruit of global toil.
. Federal tax monies fund federal projects, create jobs and supplement state and city budgets.
, It is un-American that any US company can weasel out of paying Federal taxes when everyone else is expected to pony up.
. Reducing the tax obligation of companies that pay nothing does not create jobs, nor does it do anything nice, kind or even special for the rest of us. The working poor and middle class families is The Goat, the class clown, the fooled, the first to go down and the last to recover.

By all means give the big dollar companies a free pass; a few are already clever enough to file a negative tax returns on billion dollar quarters.

Last edited by linicx; 11-17-2011 at 09:57 AM..
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Lake Arlington Heights, IL
5,463 posts, read 6,390,820 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubssoxfan View Post
Questions:
Is it true teachers get 75% of salary as pension?
Is it true that a worker making same $ as that teacher gets far less from social security?
Is it fair for those who have saved, yet are not millionaires, to have their savings taxed?
Looking for info before sharing thoughts.
Thanks.
OK, so no answers. I think y'all have some good points.
I think the "sweet spot" is somewhere between the 2 positions. I have nothing against unions per se and recognize what unions did that all workers enjoy. But the pendulum has swung too far. When I look at the pensions that teachers and public employees get, I get p***ed off. Why? Because a lot of it comes from my tax dollars, my pocket book. And when I look at what I get in social security I shake my head at the disparity. And public employees are no longer woefully underpaid like they used to be and should be able to fund part of their retirement from their own savings like many of us non-union workers need to. And when I look at 1,2,3% salary increases, I'm saying-where are my increases?!
When I read that the IL income tax increase is paying pension funds AND the governor will not change benefits for new hires, I'm saying "Why do I have to pay for this?" Not saying the teachers and public employees don't deserve a decent wage, but the retirement package is too rich, too expensive compared to most non-union workers.
Now the idea that no government intervention is needed to regulate industries is a fallacy. I think our experience with 2008 proves this. And why are we paying more for gas when it's not a supply issue? Speculative investors driving the price up; but do not dare suggest government checks and balances here or a certain segment will howl about it. And what was it I read about the large % of farm subsidies benefiting multi-millionaires?

Maybe I reflect an era when Chuck Percy was our senator, when a moderate viewpoint and finding a compromise to move forward to better our government and thus our lives was more important than proving the other party is wrong. I am sick of Democrats pandering to unions and lawyers and I am sick of Republicans pandering to big business at the expense of middle class workers!

Despite this, this is a good area to live in that has many job opportunities and a unique vitality and good standard of living. As Momma used to say, "If you can't find a job in Chicago, you can't find a job anywhere." This may have changed a bit from when she said it 30 years ago, but still is pretty accurate.
Thanks for letting me share my $.02 worth.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,281 posts, read 4,522,017 times
Reputation: 2393
The silly thing about all of this is how much everyone actually agrees upon.

Where we differ is on the nitty-gritty.

How does one determine that someone making 7 figures should be taxed at 28 vs 30 vs 32 vs 34 vs 36 etc %?

Well, it's obviously subjective - it comes down to what functions of government does society value as core. The USA ranks below literally almost every industrialized country on earth when it comes to things like education, healthcare, etc. Where we rank first - and by an astronomical amount - is the amount of money we spend on our military.

I consider the industrial-military complex to be a corruption of society at its purest form. We certainly have plenty of corruption in Illinois and Chicago, yet I'll wager most of those who complain about it aren't politically active. I've worked on campaigns which took down two old-school Chicago aldermanic hacks. What have you done, Chet? Do you feel any civic duties whatsoever? I'm not feeling it.

This is the guy America should be putting on a pedestal:

Major General Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC
1881 - 1940
double recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor


  • "I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service."
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,281 posts, read 4,522,017 times
Reputation: 2393
Chet, I absolutely DEFY you to tell me this doesn't impact Chicago, Illinois, and the USA as a whole for the worst:

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The USA is responsible for over 40% of all military expenditures on planet Earth

No time to find the links, but over the years more and more military bases north of the Mason Dixon have been closed, while whole swaths of Dixie rely on military jobs for their economies to function. That - even looking at the obscene amount the military gets in our tax dollars - also has negatively impacted our region. Ask a veteran.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 11:30 AM
 
21,772 posts, read 37,293,575 times
Reputation: 10751
Illinois does have jobs in the defense sector. The most visible defense sector employer is Boeing, but there are also Northrup plants in the Chicago region, the various military bases, the munitions facilities, et cetera.

Fact is states like California, Texas, Georgia, and Colorado have a greater number o defense related jobs, and among the poorer less populous states like Alabama and such the percentage of people that really would be hurting w/o military spending is huge...

As the Iraq troops are de-activated there ought to be a HUGE reduction in US military expenditures...

I have to smile at least a little bit that I have been pretty much one person harping on the CORRUPTION that is the KEY DIFFERENTIATOR in why Illinois is on the verge of financial ruin, ouch worse off than any other state with the possible exception of California, staying focused on the that SINGULAR level of collusion between city / state lawmakers the unions / politically connected that keep them in power while other posters wander through topics that undoubtedly have in the past made things less than ideal for the broad nation and will likely to continue to be around to some degree ALL THE WHILE admitting that they don't care about the UNUSUALLY HIGH level of corruption that plagues Illinois. We have THREE LIVING FORMER GOVERNORS THAT ARE CONVICTED FELONS!! Show me any other state with that kind of record and MAYBE I will concede that it too is as bad off as we are but as I a pretty sure there is no such case then it is I that am disheartened / troubled that the "tell lies to the sheep" tactics of re-election are unlikely to change and the citizens will continue to be fleeced...
 
Old 11-17-2011, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,281 posts, read 4,522,017 times
Reputation: 2393
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post
Illinois does have jobs in the defense sector. The most visible defense sector employer is Boeing, but there are also Northrup plants in the Chicago region, the various military bases, the munitions facilities, et cetera.

Fact is states like California, Texas, Georgia, and Colorado have a greater number o defense related jobs, and among the poorer less populous states like Alabama and such the percentage of people that really would be hurting w/o military spending is huge...

As the Iraq troops are de-activated there ought to be a HUGE reduction in US military expenditures...

I have to smile at least a little bit that I have been pretty much one person harping on the CORRUPTION that is the KEY DIFFERENTIATOR in why Illinois is on the verge of financial ruin, ouch worse off than any other state with the possible exception of California, staying focused on the that SINGULAR level of collusion between city / state lawmakers the unions / politically connected that keep them in power while other posters wander through topics that undoubtedly have in the past made things less than ideal for the broad nation and will likely to continue to be around to some degree ALL THE WHILE admitting that they don't care about the UNUSUALLY HIGH level of corruption that plagues Illinois. We have THREE LIVING FORMER GOVERNORS THAT ARE CONVICTED FELONS!! Show me any other state with that kind of record and MAYBE I will concede that it too is as bad off as we are but as I a pretty sure there is no such case then it is I that am disheartened / troubled that the "tell lies to the sheep" tactics of re-election are unlikely to change and the citizens will continue to be fleeced...
Again with the reading comprehension problems. I didn't say we didn't have any jobs in the military sector , but your example of Boeing is pretty damned rich given we had to bribe them to come here.

And that fact is exactly you're getting so much grief, WHY did we have to use tax incentives to bribe them? Because it's a giant game to the corporations, pitting state against state and city against city to see who will fall over themselves. Free market, my butt!

As for you being the "only one," posting on a message board isn't doing jack. Get involved in 3D if you want to make a difference. Be an election judge. Work for an independent/3rd party candidate if you hate the system. Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is saying corruption isn't a problem. But it isn't the water here, Chet. It's people who complain but don't do anything.

Back to the topic, here are two of the better alderman explaining why they voted for the budget. Moreno's line on "not grandstanding" is relevant, as that's what you're doing Chet, just taking an extreme position and ignoring reality.

Joe Moreno: My Yes Vote on the 2012 Budget

from his newsletter:

Governing is about compromise. It can't be a zero-sum game. If it's all or nothing- like it is in Washington right now- people lose their faith in government and nothing of consequence gets done. "Members of City Councils don't have that luxury. Our decisions can't be based on abstract discussions about "big" or "small" government. Municipal government is where the rubber meets the road. Unlike Federal and State government we can't borrow ridiculous amounts to cover our malfeasance.

It would be irresponsible to stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything's OK when it clearly isn't. I'm not interested in taking the easy option and grandstanding."


And here's Scott Waguespack explaining his position on WBEZ:

Emanuel's budget receives unanimous support | WBEZ
 
Old 11-17-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
10,856 posts, read 15,218,880 times
Reputation: 5385
Who are we kidding? Corruption?

Nearly half of the Fortune 500 companies pay no taxes, and the wealth of America's 400 richest (most of whom live in NYC) individuals have an accumulated wealth that is greater than the income of 1.5 MILLION American workers. And don't forget as long as lobbyists continue to pay Congress continues to bray. .

Last edited by linicx; 11-17-2011 at 01:20 PM..
 
Old 11-17-2011, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,281 posts, read 4,522,017 times
Reputation: 2393
Quote:
Originally Posted by linicx View Post
Who are we kidding? Corruption?

Nearly half of the Fortune 500 companies pay no taxes, and the wealth of America's 400 richest (most of whom live in NYC) individuals have an accumulated wealth that is greater than the income of 1.5 MILLION American workers. And don't forget as long as lobbyists continue to pay Congress continues to bray. .
yeah, and this is a healthy dose of reality for Chet, what kind of lunatic thinks Illinois is worse off than the bible belt?

US poverty mapped

as for the lobbyists, this is all you need to know:

http://www.numberof.net/number-of-lo...r-congressman/

Last edited by linicx; 11-17-2011 at 01:16 PM..
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