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Old 11-13-2011, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,312 posts, read 1,859,693 times
Reputation: 1488

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
i want to go back to chet's observations here because they are too important and too disturbing to ignore...

...do chet's "diamond cufflink wearing union bosses" exist. Probably. but in many unions, you won't find them.
I agree with what you said, but I do want to add something that I feel is beneficial to the "Union" side of things.

Get Unions out of Public employment (I'm looking at you, Teacher's Union). Unions belong in the private sector. Why? Because the Constitution provides more than enough "Union" for anyone in America. Try telling your boss at Wal-Mart that their "strategies" are not working, and your ideas would be better implemented because they make sense, unlike policies currently in place.

Fired.

There is no "Freedom of Speech" in the private sector, even if it is the truth. Legal recourse can be had through Public employment in virtually all cases. In the private world more than enough legal lead-way is given. In Indiana a person can be fired for any reason at all. And it's "legal".

The public sector SHOULD NOT benefit from a union. It already benefits from one of the greatest documents already written; The Constitution. Whether or not that benefit is fully realized is placed upon the people in Public employment. It should NOT BE LEGAL for a private establishment to revoke, or suspend, the rights all Americans enjoy under The Constitution. The First Amendment is first for a reason. Without the ability to speak your mind, through various avenues (INCLUDING UNIONS), a truly free society cannot exist.

 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:56 PM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,904,892 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToriaT View Post
I do not believe that most people were lying about their ability to pay. Maybe some were. Most just wanted to be a part of the american dream of owning a house and they believed everything would work out...they would keep their jobs and the market would continue to go up. I always say when you take out a mortage you have to come up with that payment not for a year, not for six months, not even for five years, but usually for thirty years. A lot of bad can happen in that time, and many people were too optimistic that they would keep their jobs and be able to pay. When that did not happen, oops. I do not think they were crooks.
There was a reason that some people did not own homes-they couldn't afford it. Price wasn't an issue; no down payments were required. So someone working all his or her life to own a home can suddenly pick-up a $500,000.00 home with no money down and have the option to pay interest only? Everyone, from the bank, investors, real estate agents, brokers and buyers. There were tons of scammers.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 03:11 PM
 
28,455 posts, read 84,936,054 times
Reputation: 18725
The Tribune has done much to expose the union executives that have been bilking the pensions systems of millions. The diamond cufflink wearing union bosses very much exist.

The legislators in Springfield are right now allegedly closing some of these loopholes that have allowed enormous pensions to unjustiably flow to union bosses that are abusing the system.

The legislture is further contemplating a whole range of changes to the mess of pension fueled monkey business that contributes to the non-competitiveness of Illinois. Some of these changes are needed but but do not go far enough and others seem just as rife for corruption as current practices. Given the less than stellar record that the lawmakers have I really do not think it would be wise to allow them to have too much say in setting the terms of compensation for more employees, though the Governor has already proved just how incompetent he is at would ought to be a simple task -- reigning inn the ridiculously genrerous salary and benefit growth that has been promised to governmental unions.

The deleterious effect of these give sways spillover to private sector jobs and make the cost of hiring too high in Illinois. Right to work states have fared better in this downturn and will likely also fare better when the economy picks up.

If you want to ignore the articles in the Tribune and the litereral crisis that has been created in Illinois & Chicago go ahead and keep your head in the sand. When you get your income tax bill tell me that Illinois has not created it's own mess...
 
Old 11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,904,892 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanpln View Post
I will be surprised if you get many post on this topic. To answer to your question none. No city in this country is doing that great however, sometimes I wonder if Chicago leadership really had a good strategy.

I worked in urban planning under the previous administration and never heard them articulate an economic development strategy. They never even focused on mass transit as part of positioning the city for the future. I know it would have been tough to do but, the administration never really approach this issue seriously. They also filled many key position with professionals who were not experienced or had great vision in that field. An example would be Transportation. That department was run by cops and other southwest siders for years. NYC and D.C. had well trained professionals and visionaries in those positions and as a result they are much further ahead on pedestrian, transit (including bicycles) and other traffic related quality of life issues.

I know the Daley administration did many great things (public housing, education and downtown) but, competition among all world cities has been fierce for decades. You need the best and brightest working in these department helping to solve problems that affect residents of the city.
I agree. I think Chicago's transportation system is antiquated. I've stated this before, the elevated tracks in the Loop should have been removed and placed undergroung a long time ago (I know this is a sacrilege in Chicago but the elevated loop system was cutting-edge in the 1890s). I recall the ''circulator" project for the Navy Pier to McCormick Place proposed in the 1990s-this should have been acted on and not shelved. Perhaps a an extension along Madison to the United Center/back east along Washington or Monroe....on this forum I was accused of wanting to create ''tourist-disney'' Chicago...the reality is creating the new and future Chicago. Pedestrian, biking etc. is a whole different area Chicago is way behind on as well...Herald and Times Squares in NYC are really cool when traffic is blocked-out by tables, chairs and pedestrian foot traffic on Broadway.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Chicago
6,359 posts, read 8,756,596 times
Reputation: 5869
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet everett View Post

If you want to ignore the articles in the Tribune and the litereral crisis that has been created in Illinois & Chicago go ahead and keep your head in the sand. When you get your income tax bill tell me that Illinois has not created it's own mess...
Yep, you got that one nailed, Chet. The Trib is a reliable voice of reason (as opposed to the corporate shill many of us think it is). Chet, do you have any idea how you sound when you suggest "listen to the Trib"?

and, of course, you are absolutely correct about the power of labor. Indeed, for the last 30 or so years (since the time of the Reagan Revolution), it is the working man who has made great strides in the United States, his income rising steadily while the very rich have suffered tremendous loses.

Right, Chet?

Jeez, man, do you live in a cave? Union membership has virtually disappeared in the United States. The GOP governors that swept into power in the 2010 Tea Party election were determined to kill off the last element of the unions: the public sector.

That's why over 100,000 showed up in Capitol Square in Madison every day...because they gave in on every compromise imaginable to a governor that was hell bent to break their backs and did what he could to kill any collective bargaining provision.

Of course union leaders can be bad. But in modern America, it is hardly the unions with the power. Their power has been decimated and management and global corporations call the shots.

Unions are the last line of defense that keeps us from being complete serfs (although we're pretty close now).

Chet, I'm not going to reach you. You're not going to see this because you live in a different universe. You are oblivious to what the working man in America has faced for over a third of a century. Yet you are so much more concerned about the power of the people which has virtually disappeared than by the absues of the oligarchy which owns our government and destroys lives. Your words scream out that you think "the people" have been more at fault than the big boys who run the institutions that run the nation. You talk of labor unions at a time when they are virtually non-existent and at a time when the few that are left are the last lines of defense against powers that wish to take away all our economic power as they consolidate more and more of their own.

you really have more trouble with labor than with management, Chet????????????

I make a good buck, but I'm all for being taxed and paying my fair share. It's the American thing to do. I know that tax money, when spent correctly, provides essential services and that, in many ways, I make more money because I am taxed than I would without it. We are all in it together, whether you realize it or not, Chet. And apparently you don't. And on that score, I feel very sorry for you.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 09:04 PM
 
28,455 posts, read 84,936,054 times
Reputation: 18725
I have no problem with taxes. In Illinois the problem is that those tax dollars are not going to the most needed things. Instead of some kind equitable dispersement of fund based of where they do the most good Illinois has a corrupt and antiquated system of digging the debt hole ever deeper to fatten the up he people that keep getting re-elected on bogus promises.

The fact is that despite the best efforts of crazies in Wisconsin to recall state legislators that sided with their reform minded governor and a mad plan to stack their state supreme court, the forces of organized labor were unable to get the mass of regular voters to go along with their crazy schemes.

Organized labor has failed to maintain it ranks because they buy into nonsense told in comicbook fashion about management being out to get the working guy. That is bunk. The forces of globalization mean that workers that do add sufficient value to the production process will be left out in the cold. Cheap goods made in low wage countries are the direct result of unreasonable demands from corrupt labor leaders -- they literally choose fewer jobs over more jobs. Such a strategy works fairly well in the short term for the leadership of unions, afterall it results in fewer potential challengers for the diamond cufflink jobs. In the long run the shrinking ranks of labor means that labor will eventually be unable to deliver the kinds of votes that corrupt politicians counted on and repaid with overly generous labor rates...

The census data clearly shows that during the economic expansion the pie was getting BIGGER and real wages were rising across the board. While the top tiers of earnings did rise higher the general wealth of all segments of the workforce also grew. That did not happen because of any moronic "occupy" types in state capitals or the financial districts, it largely happened because innovative business leaders in the technology sector got the backing of venture capitalists. The explosion of productivity that marked the Clinton era was largely due to revolutions in white collar work that slashed the dead weight of low skilled paper pushers and put better tools right in the hands of front line workers.

I have been employed in unionized and non-unionized schools and the marked difference in how easy it is to change things for the better in the latter compared to the adversarial mess that exists in even the best of the former ought to be testament enough to how non-productive unions are.

Further I now primarily in the IT segment, and area that is notably non-unionized. The wages I and my colleagues enjoy far exceed that in any unionized environment/ The barriers to entry in IT are not "who you know" but what skills you can demonstrated. Tremendous numbers of people do very well indeed without even having the benefit of being born in the US. I work alongside folks from China, India, Russia, and other countries.

The "management" of corrupt political entities like the State of Illinois, Cook County, and the City of Chicago frighten me far more than the leaders of any corporations. The abusive manner in which they recklessly waste the resources of the citizens that they allegedly represent far exceeds any subpar performance that corporate leaders may turn in.

If you cast your future with buffoons that continue to lie and cheat their way to office that is something to truly feel sorry for...
m
 
Old 11-13-2011, 09:24 PM
 
124 posts, read 218,743 times
Reputation: 92
Hahaha someone said public housing was a great thing...
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:13 PM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,904,892 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
Yep, you got that one nailed, Chet. The Trib is a reliable voice of reason (as opposed to the corporate shill many of us think it is). Chet, do you have any idea how you sound when you suggest "listen to the Trib"?

and, of course, you are absolutely correct about the power of labor. Indeed, for the last 30 or so years (since the time of the Reagan Revolution), it is the working man who has made great strides in the United States, his income rising steadily while the very rich have suffered tremendous loses.

Right, Chet?

Jeez, man, do you live in a cave? Union membership has virtually disappeared in the United States. The GOP governors that swept into power in the 2010 Tea Party election were determined to kill off the last element of the unions: the public sector.

That's why over 100,000 showed up in Capitol Square in Madison every day...because they gave in on every compromise imaginable to a governor that was hell bent to break their backs and did what he could to kill any collective bargaining provision.

Of course union leaders can be bad. But in modern America, it is hardly the unions with the power. Their power has been decimated and management and global corporations call the shots.

Unions are the last line of defense that keeps us from being complete serfs (although we're pretty close now).

Chet, I'm not going to reach you. You're not going to see this because you live in a different universe. You are oblivious to what the working man in America has faced for over a third of a century. Yet you are so much more concerned about the power of the people which has virtually disappeared than by the absues of the oligarchy which owns our government and destroys lives. Your words scream out that you think "the people" have been more at fault than the big boys who run the institutions that run the nation. You talk of labor unions at a time when they are virtually non-existent and at a time when the few that are left are the last lines of defense against powers that wish to take away all our economic power as they consolidate more and more of their own.

you really have more trouble with labor than with management, Chet????????????

I make a good buck, but I'm all for being taxed and paying my fair share. It's the American thing to do. I know that tax money, when spent correctly, provides essential services and that, in many ways, I make more money because I am taxed than I would without it. We are all in it together, whether you realize it or not, Chet. And apparently you don't. And on that score, I feel very sorry for you.
Off hand, it seems that the police, fire and CTA workers have worked out great pensions and perks all of which will be unsustainable. Interesting how all the railing is against corporate greed when just the three unions I mentioned have created a financial mess as well.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 12:02 AM
 
Location: Chicago - Logan Square
3,396 posts, read 7,172,719 times
Reputation: 3731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms View Post
Off hand, it seems that the police, fire and CTA workers have worked out great pensions and perks all of which will be unsustainable.
Plenty of private companies, states and municipalities have negotiated pensions that are fully funded and are sustainable. They have benefits that are just as generous (in some cases more generous) than any of the ones in Illinois. The difference is - they funded them. Pensions in Illinois were underfunded for years, Dawn Clark Netsch ran for Governor in 1994 on a platform that included fully funding Illinois pensions. This has been a case of criminal neglect for decades.

When a state or municipality agrees to benefits they need to set the money aside for them. To not do that, and then 20 years later start complaining about the "generous" benefits that were promised is a load of bull. Politicians did not want to raise taxes to pay for salary increases, so they kicked the can down the road by promising future benefits instead. They then failed to invest the money needed to pay for those benefits.

A .025% income tax increase in the early 90's set aside for paying pensions would have prevented this whole mess. It wasn't done, and the money wasn't set aside. While I agree that work needs to be done to address pension abuses (as every state needs to do) the problem does not come from crazy benefits, it comes from failing to set the money aside to pay for those benefits when the bill comes due.
 
Old 11-14-2011, 12:24 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 4,904,892 times
Reputation: 2162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attrill View Post
Plenty of private companies, states and municipalities have negotiated pensions that are fully funded and are sustainable. They have benefits that are just as generous (in some cases more generous) than any of the ones in Illinois. The difference is - they funded them. Pensions in Illinois were underfunded for years, Dawn Clark Netsch ran for Governor in 1994 on a platform that included fully funding Illinois pensions. This has been a case of criminal neglect for decades.

When a state or municipality agrees to benefits they need to set the money aside for them. To not do that, and then 20 years later start complaining about the "generous" benefits that were promised is a load of bull. Politicians did not want to raise taxes to pay for salary increases, so they kicked the can down the road by promising future benefits instead. They then failed to invest the money needed to pay for those benefits.

A .025% income tax increase in the early 90's set aside for paying pensions would have prevented this whole mess. It wasn't done, and the money wasn't set aside. While I agree that work needs to be done to address pension abuses (as every state needs to do) the problem does not come from crazy benefits, it comes from failing to set the money aside to pay for those benefits when the bill comes due.
OK...but when you hear that a firefighter retires with 185k pension for life, how is that going to be funded for 25+ years. Also, you hear new hires are not getting the same deal it sounds more like policy than non-funding. Where will the money come from then since it's already gone? Do you think Chicago will enact a city income tax?
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