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Does anybody actually watch Fox News Chicago? What's the maximum damage that could have been inflicted - 2, maybe 3 kids?
The jolly old man's cover would have been blown anyways. At nearly every turn, reality is just a click away. Practically any kid (mine included when he was four) can google "Is Santa real".
Now with technology, the truth about santa's existence is readily available to children beyond asking their parents.
All hail the ultra logical super hero of reasoning! Because, you know, logic and reasoning is extremely important to young children...
You can be as logical and reasonable as you want but in the end you're completely ignoring something much more powerful in humans: emotion.
I really hope you don't have kids because I can tell you right now, logic and reason are so much less important for children than imagination, emotion and love. I've met plenty of people like you, usually left brain thinkers and typically engineers and whatnot. You see no importance in the fun a child can have with imagination then I feel sorry for your future children quite honestly. Everything is about honesty with people like you and it should be clear to a logical person like yourself that 100% absolute honesty is not always the best policy. You're robbing your child of an entire childhood of the fun of believing in something that might not be real. But you want to believe. By the time they're old enough, they won't believing in anything. I believe in nothing, and what good is that? What does that do for me? Believing in nothing sure isn't fun. I think it's better for a child to believe there is a man who gives gifts to children who are good than for a child to believe in nothing. That seems so drab. Like the child has become the cynical, all knowing logical adult like you, except they're 8 years old.
I highly doubt most 1st or 2nd graders google "Is santa real?" By that age they don't really know they can answer almost every question imaginable by using the internet. Hell, my parents don't even understand that concept.
Hell yes I am a cynical logical adult, and I was also a cynical logical child who hated my parents for lying to me about many many things. I expect my children to be similar to me in many respects because I believe that one's personality is determined by genetics much more than by other means. Because of this, they will appreciate knowing the truth.
Also, logic and imagination are not mutually exclusive. And believing in Santa wasn't that fun anyway.
All hail the ultra logical super hero of reasoning! Because, you know, logic and reasoning is extremely important to young children...
You can be as logical and reasonable as you want but in the end you're completely ignoring something much more powerful in humans: emotion.
Can you explain how belief in something not real ties into emotion? I know many atheists, agnostics, and secularists that have plenty of emotion. Are you saying only children have higher levels of emotion if they believe in unreal things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDurden
I really hope you don't have kids because I can tell you right now, logic and reason are so much less important for children than imagination, emotion and love.
Clearly your reading comprehension missed the fact that I state I don't have children. That isn't the point. Reading your statement regarding Seattle in another thread, I'm guessing you don't either. That said, I have interacted with many children, due to coming from a large family. Children have plenty of emotion. They have plenty of imagination. Lies don't increase either of them.
And to the folks who say "Don't you like getting advice from people without children", well, not having children gives me a great deal of time to read and analyze society. You are welcome to your opinion, but it would be a hard sell to convince me that a lie is the best thing for a child, perhaps you'll be voting for Newt in the primaries?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDurden
I've met plenty of people like you, usually left brain thinkers and typically engineers and whatnot. You see no importance in the fun a child can have with imagination then I feel sorry for your future children quite honestly. Everything is about honesty with people like you and it should be clear to a logical person like yourself that 100% absolute honesty is not always the best policy. You're robbing your child of an entire childhood of the fun of believing in something that might not be real. But you want to believe. By the time they're old enough, they won't believing in anything.
I'm not sure where to dissect this first. First off, I am obviously a scientist, I think Isotope gives that away. I'll have you know that I can paint, draw and have a rather robust imagination. My siblings also have talent on both "sides of the brain" and some chose to go into Math, others Art, one is pursuing writing now also. I'd argue that to be logical and reasonable, you don't have to be an engineer. My siblings are also fairly logical, I know none of them attend any religious services even though we were all raised that way. I think my point here, is that belief in invisible things has no positive correlating influence on creativity, imagination, or inspiration.
Dishonesty however, in this form, leads to follow the leader indoctrination. Why do 80% of Americans question evolution, but have such a predisposition to believe in the existence of a divine creator? I have to infer that these are somehow connected.
100% honesty is not something that I've championed. It's the belief in the implausible that I question.
Couldn't children who don't believe anything (obviously false) actually be beneficial for society? I mean think about commercials, gradually they would actually have to tell you things about the car like they used to back in the 80's! They wouldn't be able to just show some above average attractive person with their friends listening to dance music while driving through a city to sell the car!
I believe in nothing, and what good is that? What does that do for me? Believing in nothing sure isn't fun.
Well, I certainly don't think it would be more fun to believe in something invisible controlling the world, allowing or influencing earthquakes, disasters and death. The nice thing is, you have a choice. Here's a list of religions you can join, just google them, some more fun than others: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, and most fun for last: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDurden
I think it's better for a child to believe there is a man who gives gifts to children who are good than for a child to believe in nothing. That seems so drab. Like the child has become the cynical, all knowing logical adult like you, except they're 8 years old.
Quite frankly, in this day and age, a stranger who is dressed funny who breaks into your house and leaves "presents" sounds a little felonious. I'd think the gifts coming from someone who cares for you would be far more appreciated.
I don't recall saying anything about being all knowing. I do know much more than your average American. As a child growing up, I also knew much more than the children around me. This was due to my environment. We weren't just plopped down in front of a TV. It's very sad that so many kids today learn mostly the garbage on the tele.
An FYI: Since I know you are from Seattle, there is a different attitude here regarding people who might be smarter than you when you interact with them in public. On the west coast, it was way more common for people to verbally complain when someone "used big words" or "talked down" to someone by "using big words". Here, it is far more commonplace for someone to say, "I didn't get any of that, explain it to me like I'm seven". The other common reaction here is to "smile and nod". Which is usually reserved for people you grow not to like, though first impressions here aren't absolute. There is certainly a vast culture difference between Chicago and the west coast, and Chicago and the rest of the midwest, different from the suburbs even. We don't have a Seattle freeze here, because we actually get a temperature freeze, and we have to be warmer to make up for the subzero temperatures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDurden
I highly doubt most 1st or 2nd graders google "Is santa real?" By that age they don't really know they can answer almost every question imaginable by using the internet. Hell, my parents don't even understand that concept.
A different posting in here says that yes, kids do google that well. Must be a pain preventing a child from being lied to. Stupid Wikileaks.
Can you explain how belief in something not real ties into emotion? I know many atheists, agnostics, and secularists that have plenty of emotion. Are you saying only children have higher levels of emotion if they believe in unreal things?
Clearly your reading comprehension missed the fact that I state I don't have children. That isn't the point. Reading your statement regarding Seattle in another thread, I'm guessing you don't either. That said, I have interacted with many children, due to coming from a large family. Children have plenty of emotion. They have plenty of imagination. Lies don't increase either of them.
And to the folks who say "Don't you like getting advice from people without children", well, not having children gives me a great deal of time to read and analyze society. You are welcome to your opinion, but it would be a hard sell to convince me that a lie is the best thing for a child, perhaps you'll be voting for Newt in the primaries?
I'm not sure where to dissect this first. First off, I am obviously a scientist, I think Isotope gives that away. I'll have you know that I can paint, draw and have a rather robust imagination. My siblings also have talent on both "sides of the brain" and some chose to go into Math, others Art, one is pursuing writing now also. I'd argue that to be logical and reasonable, you don't have to be an engineer. My siblings are also fairly logical, I know none of them attend any religious services even though we were all raised that way. I think my point here, is that belief in invisible things has no positive correlating influence on creativity, imagination, or inspiration.
Dishonesty however, in this form, leads to follow the leader indoctrination. Why do 80% of Americans question evolution, but have such a predisposition to believe in the existence of a divine creator? I have to infer that these are somehow connected.
100% honesty is not something that I've championed. It's the belief in the implausible that I question.
Couldn't children who don't believe anything (obviously false) actually be beneficial for society? I mean think about commercials, gradually they would actually have to tell you things about the car like they used to back in the 80's! They wouldn't be able to just show some above average attractive person with their friends listening to dance music while driving through a city to sell the car!
Well, I certainly don't think it would be more fun to believe in something invisible controlling the world, allowing or influencing earthquakes, disasters and death. The nice thing is, you have a choice. Here's a list of religions you can join, just google them, some more fun than others: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, and most fun for last: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Quite frankly, in this day and age, a stranger who is dressed funny who breaks into your house and leaves "presents" sounds a little felonious. I'd think the gifts coming from someone who cares for you would be far more appreciated.
I don't recall saying anything about being all knowing. I do know much more than your average American. As a child growing up, I also knew much more than the children around me. This was due to my environment. We weren't just plopped down in front of a TV. It's very sad that so many kids today learn mostly the garbage on the tele.
An FYI: Since I know you are from Seattle, there is a different attitude here regarding people who might be smarter than you when you interact with them in public. On the west coast, it was way more common for people to verbally complain when someone "used big words" or "talked down" to someone by "using big words". Here, it is far more commonplace for someone to say, "I didn't get any of that, explain it to me like I'm seven". The other common reaction here is to "smile and nod". Which is usually reserved for people you grow not to like, though first impressions here aren't absolute. There is certainly a vast culture difference between Chicago and the west coast, and Chicago and the rest of the midwest, different from the suburbs even. We don't have a Seattle freeze here, because we actually get a temperature freeze, and we have to be warmer to make up for the subzero temperatures.
A different posting in here says that yes, kids do google that well. Must be a pain preventing a child from being lied to. Stupid Wikileaks.
Why do keep posting about santa and kids when you have no children?
Can you explain how belief in something not real ties into emotion? I know many atheists, agnostics, and secularists that have plenty of emotion. Are you saying only children have higher levels of emotion if they believe in unreal things?
Clearly your reading comprehension missed the fact that I state I don't have children. That isn't the point. Reading your statement regarding Seattle in another thread, I'm guessing you don't either. That said, I have interacted with many children, due to coming from a large family. Children have plenty of emotion. They have plenty of imagination. Lies don't increase either of them.
And to the folks who say "Don't you like getting advice from people without children", well, not having children gives me a great deal of time to read and analyze society. You are welcome to your opinion, but it would be a hard sell to convince me that a lie is the best thing for a child, perhaps you'll be voting for Newt in the primaries?
I'm not sure where to dissect this first. First off, I am obviously a scientist, I think Isotope gives that away. I'll have you know that I can paint, draw and have a rather robust imagination. My siblings also have talent on both "sides of the brain" and some chose to go into Math, others Art, one is pursuing writing now also. I'd argue that to be logical and reasonable, you don't have to be an engineer. My siblings are also fairly logical, I know none of them attend any religious services even though we were all raised that way. I think my point here, is that belief in invisible things has no positive correlating influence on creativity, imagination, or inspiration.
Dishonesty however, in this form, leads to follow the leader indoctrination. Why do 80% of Americans question evolution, but have such a predisposition to believe in the existence of a divine creator? I have to infer that these are somehow connected.
100% honesty is not something that I've championed. It's the belief in the implausible that I question.
Couldn't children who don't believe anything (obviously false) actually be beneficial for society? I mean think about commercials, gradually they would actually have to tell you things about the car like they used to back in the 80's! They wouldn't be able to just show some above average attractive person with their friends listening to dance music while driving through a city to sell the car!
Well, I certainly don't think it would be more fun to believe in something invisible controlling the world, allowing or influencing earthquakes, disasters and death. The nice thing is, you have a choice. Here's a list of religions you can join, just google them, some more fun than others: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, and most fun for last: Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
Quite frankly, in this day and age, a stranger who is dressed funny who breaks into your house and leaves "presents" sounds a little felonious. I'd think the gifts coming from someone who cares for you would be far more appreciated.
I don't recall saying anything about being all knowing. I do know much more than your average American. As a child growing up, I also knew much more than the children around me. This was due to my environment. We weren't just plopped down in front of a TV. It's very sad that so many kids today learn mostly the garbage on the tele.
An FYI: Since I know you are from Seattle, there is a different attitude here regarding people who might be smarter than you when you interact with them in public. On the west coast, it was way more common for people to verbally complain when someone "used big words" or "talked down" to someone by "using big words". Here, it is far more commonplace for someone to say, "I didn't get any of that, explain it to me like I'm seven". The other common reaction here is to "smile and nod". Which is usually reserved for people you grow not to like, though first impressions here aren't absolute. There is certainly a vast culture difference between Chicago and the west coast, and Chicago and the rest of the midwest, different from the suburbs even. We don't have a Seattle freeze here, because we actually get a temperature freeze, and we have to be warmer to make up for the subzero temperatures.
A different posting in here says that yes, kids do google that well. Must be a pain preventing a child from being lied to. Stupid Wikileaks.
Well, you brought up good points and you're obviously intelligent but:
Emotion ties into belief because the belief in Santa brings children excitement, joy and a kind of warmth. And unlike many religions, this belief isn't dangerous because at some point the child will find on his/her own that Santa is not real. There will be no wars or blood shed about it. It's just fun and happiness for a child. The night before Christmas is an absolutely ecstatic time for children and not just because of presents. The thought of a magical man leaving presents for you and riding off on his sleigh with his reindeer is an awesome thought, and the fact that you equate this to "felonious" is absolutely ridiculous to me and shows how negative an angle you're coming from. It's proof that you really have lost all the imagination, fun and excitement from childhood now that you're an adult. And that's sad to me.
And I had no anger whatsoever for my parents for "lying" to me. There's a purpose for the "lie" and there's a meaning behind Santa. A metaphor/representation. I'm not saying a child has a higher level of emotion when believing in things. But this particular thing WILL bring a child positive emotions. Trust me, your (potential) child will feel left out in school and amongst children being one of the few that doesn't get to participate in the excitement. He'll argue with other kids about what HIS parents say about the matter, and overall it will have a negative effect on them.
No, I didn't think it was obvious you were a scientist. I didn't even read your username but if I did it's not like a dead giveaway. You just write like a scientist, your views are like a scientist or engineer, it's just pretty obvious. I know because Seattle is full of that type of person due to all the technological jobs in the area. Not usually the type of people I'd hang out with. Bland. Boring.
I don't think believing in Santa leads to a "follow the leader" indoctrination and if anything, will lead children to question other things besides the existence of Santa. In fact, that's what it did for me. I wondered, what else could just be a metaphor or a guideline? I was a child that was always questioning the existence of god, to the dismay of my Catholic school teachers and parents.
Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to change it, but from what I see, the children raised in the 100% honesty, households of logic and reasoning run by engineers and scientists, are obviously very different than other children. They're usually not as energetic, not allowed to "goof around" as much, and their parents would like them to be no-nonsense zombies. I've seen it a lot from neighbors and babysitting in the Seattle area when I was younger. Children need nonsense. Parents should encourage nonsense, goofing around, imagination and believing in things that are fun to believe in. Like imaginary friends and other worlds and magical circumstances. I believe it's important.
I guess we dont want our news reporters/journalist speaking the truth. Maybe we want them to speak the truth only sometimes?
How stupefyingly obtuse does one have to be to regard "the truth" about the existential nature of Santa Claus as an matter of journalistic integrity?
What we want from our news reporters is for them to report, like, the news while they keep their gratuitous killjoy child-rearing editorializing to themselves.
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. I survived! I should get at least a tee shirt and a fancy dinner as compensation for my distress.
