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I'm running the risk of getting really off topic here, so some relevant advice first: Boston and Chicago are both great, though for something like residency, I'd recommend Chicago. I'm guessing it pays about the same no matter which city you choose, and the fact is that your money will go a lot further in Chicago. And you won't be sacrificing much in amenities either. You'd be giving up proximity to family, but really, the Chicago-New York flight route is so popular that prices remain low, and you have lots of options.
I guess the only thing I'd say is that Harvard is considered the #1 medical school in the world. As great a school as U of Chicago is, it's not in the top 10 usually overall. Some categories it is, some it's definitely not. I think U of Chicago is only $5000/year less than Harvard too.
While I think getting a med degree from Harvard will give you tons of opportunities, I don't think going to somewhere like U of Chicago would be that far behind in that. Maybe a slightly less percentage, but U of Chicago is held in very high esteem even if the med school isn't top 10.
Personally for PURE academic reasons, if I knew I could do well at Harvard, I'd definitely take that up, but if you weigh everything else then Chicago is definitely a viable option too IMO.
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Anyway, about population density on the south and west sides: Those neighborhoods were actually really crowded before WWII. This was the major reason that Polish immigrants moved further northwest along Milwaukee. The housing was better, and there was actually enough space for everyone.
Bronzeville in particular had some massive overcrowding issues. That area was dominated by apartments called "kitchenettes." Landlords carved up their buildings into tiny apartments, most of which didn't have kitchens or their own bathrooms. The apartments got their name because the landlord usually provided only a hotplate for cooking. Moreover, due to restrictive housing rules, many blacks were more or less forced to rent in Bronzeville and nowhere else, so prices were just as high as they were in the white neighborhoods.
While it's easy to look at the numbers and say that Chicago's neighborhoods are depopulated, historical accounts tell a much different story. The fact is that even if those neighborhoods were completely built up again, they'd probably never reach their former population levels. It's just that people no longer accept those living conditions that enabled such high densities in the past.
I always find this stuff fascinating. Thanks for some of this info..definitely awesome stuff. I agree with you that most neighborhoods wont' see the density, but I do think that some can. Bronzeville might be able to, but not in the same way. The area is close enough to the downtown areas where if they want to built it up (and i know they do), they can build more high rises and that will add to the density. An area like North Lawndale has a lot of vacant lots...
But I think for the other areas, it would take awhile before the density would get much higher again. The only legal way now is probably high rises, and for that to happen, I think it has to spread neighborhood by neighborhood almost.
Yep. And they used to be. Bronzeville and North Lawndale for example come to mind. North Lawndale used to have 4X the population it does today. I think Bronzeville was 2.5-3 times the population at one point. I saw the PBS documentary on hidden Chicago and it talked about a place in Bronzeville that was a world famous jazz club people like Louis Armstrong played at. He even wrote a song about it. It's a f'ing hardware store now and some older musicians from all around the world actually make a pilgrimage here sometimes to play again there...the stage is in the manager's office in back hidden from view. The documentary was from a handful of years ago but i wish I could have seen some of these areas at their heyday.
West Town used to also be the biggest neighborhood in town. with almost 190,000 residents at one point. Now it's 80,000 which is big, but it was still over double at one point. Then you know, suburbs and stuff happened..
I'm running the risk of getting really off topic here, so some relevant advice first: Boston and Chicago are both great, though for something like residency, I'd recommend Chicago. I'm guessing it pays about the same no matter which city you choose, and the fact is that your money will go a lot further in Chicago. And you won't be sacrificing much in amenities either. You'd be giving up proximity to family, but really, the Chicago-New York flight route is so popular that prices remain low, and you have lots of options.
Anyway, about population density on the south and west sides: Those neighborhoods were actually really crowded before WWII. This was the major reason that Polish immigrants moved further northwest along Milwaukee. The housing was better, and there was actually enough space for everyone.
Bronzeville in particular had some massive overcrowding issues. That area was dominated by apartments called "kitchenettes." Landlords carved up their buildings into tiny apartments, most of which didn't have kitchens or their own bathrooms. The apartments got their name because the landlord usually provided only a hotplate for cooking. Moreover, due to restrictive housing rules, many blacks were more or less forced to rent in Bronzeville and nowhere else, so prices were just as high as they were in the white neighborhoods.
While it's easy to look at the numbers and say that Chicago's neighborhoods are depopulated, historical accounts tell a much different story. The fact is that even if those neighborhoods were completely built up again, they'd probably never reach their former population levels. It's just that people no longer accept those living conditions that enabled such high densities in the past.
That's interesting... It's crazy to imagine how Chicago was back then... at its peak, Chicago's population was almost as much as LA's population today, yet Chicago is less than 1/2 the geographic size of LA. I imagine it was a different world.
That's interesting... It's crazy to imagine how Chicago was back then... at its peak, Chicago's population was almost as much as LA's population today, yet Chicago is less than 1/2 the geographic size of LA. I imagine it was a different world.
I always enjoy when Curbed does their cornerspotting stuff. It's night and day some of these places. I don't know if it's on here or one of the skyscraper sites, but there's a thread with all these old urban pics of Chicago that's big time gone now. It's insane.
Im definitely not saying dont go to the West or South side at all, just those specific areas.
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To be clear, I was advocating at least being open to visiting even "those specific areas" on the West and South Sides of Chicago (and elsewhere) with the most problems of recent violent crime, such as Englewood, South Shore, Garfield Park, Woodlawn, and Roseland, rather than simply ignoring or avoiding those areas altogether, as I find that some people in Chicagoland do.
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Originally Posted by Chicagoist123
I agree to an extent but not completely. That fact is that the southside and west really just don't have as much to offer as the northside does. Yes there are some cool neighborhoods and spots on the southside, but not that many when compared to the northside. I venture to southside a few times a year only. Why? Strictly for two reasons:
1. It takes me a while to get there via CTA.
2. There just isn't enough to do for me to keep me going on a regular basis.
I don't go to the southside not because I am "scared" but because in reality there as not THAT much to do down there and it's not as easy to get around as the northside.
The northside and the southside are each the size of a major city. The northside is like the size of San Francisco, and the southside probably even larger. I think it's understandable why people who live in one don't venture into the other one that often. Chicago is a BIG city.
Now for people who live in Lincoln Park and only stay in LP, LV, the Near North and the Loop and never venture elsewhere that to me is bad. But when it comes to northside and southside I understand why.
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Originally Posted by marothisu
I think we're talking more about the areas like North Lawndale, Austin, Englewood, South Shore, Greater Grand Crossing, etc. I think in each there's a few reasons to go, at least for me, but overall eh. I mean each of these places have some good food (some good Mexican food in South Lawndale), some good southern food in Austin, there's actually supposed to be a good place in Englewood near one of the colleges/culinary schools there too I've heard, good BBQ in both GGC and South Shore. I've been to South Shore for charity work too a few times, but it's really not like I'm there all the time.
On average though, someone who lives in say Lakeview won't have that much of a reason to actually travel deep into Austin except a few reasons, but if it's not their job, then I doubt they'd be going there much for most types of people.
Yes, obviously, for someone living on the North Side, visiting the South Side (less so the West Side) is clearly not as convenient as simply remaining on the North Side. And it's true that, as has been discussed on this forum and elsewhere before, one of the limiting factors in many respects for the South Side—especially the further south you go—is the relative lack of coverage by the CTA el trains compared to the North and West Sides; the CTA buses cover the South Side just as thoroughly as the rest of the city, but it does take a very long time to get there from the North Side by bus. And yes, of course, there aren't nearly as many businesses, and particularly businesses with a broad appeal, on the South Side as on the North Side, so in that sense it may not "have as much to offer" and may have fewer "reasons to go." But there certainly are some worthwhile businesses on the South Side, especially restaurants, as marothisu mentioned. And I, for one, see reasons to visit some parts of the South and West Sides other than shopping or dining, which are obviously much more abundant on the North Side. I think the history and architecture of many parts of the South and West Side is striking and remarkable. Some of the residential portions of the South and West Sides have appealing, attractively laid-out blocks and streets, and make a delightful place for a walk or a bike ride on a nice day. The South and West Sides actually contain the majority of the city's loveliest parks, boulevards, and other public spaces. Plus, there's the less tangible value of broadening one's horizons and expanding one's understanding and appreciation of other places, which is one of the biggest reasons for travel of any kind, even if it's just to the other side of the city (incidentally, for the same reasons, I think it can be a good idea for Chicagoans to spend some time visiting and exploring the outer suburbs and the rural fringes of Chicagoland, which are other areas that North Siders sometimes look down their noses at).
Specifically, I think Englewood can be quite an interesting place to visit once in a while, as perhaps the most stigmatized place in Chicago now that the CHA high rises have been torn-down. I'm not saying that one needs to spend a ton of their free time there, and I'm not suggesting that one go wandering around the back alleys of Englewood late on a Friday night in the summertime (although I think the actual risk of doing so would be a lot less than people might think). But I find Englewood to be a striking place to go for a drive or a bike ride every now and then. As was discussed later in this thread, Englewood was actually heavily populated and a pretty desirable place not all that long ago, and one can see remnants of those glory days here and there in the neighborhood today. But the neighborhood has also had a very difficult few decades, and one certainly sees plenty of the scars and the open wounds that have resulted from the neglect and decay. So, when I go to Englewood, I find myself with mixed feelings. There are enough beautiful old buildings, houses, streets, parks, etc. that it's a surprisingly pleasant place in some ways, and one can almost forget that you're in a "bad" neighborhood. But there's also enough visible blight and decrepitude that it can seem pretty hopeless. Sometimes I think that Englewood really might have a bright future not too far away, but then other times it seems like it's just going to continue getting worse and worse. Going through Englewood can make me feel happy, sad, scared, optimistic, and pessimistic, all at the same time. But I think it's interesting and valuable to see and experience some of it firsthand. Some of what you hear on TV or read on the internet makes it sound like anyone is going to get shot the second you step out of your car anywhere near 63rd and Halsted, but of course that's not true. And you'd sometimes get the impression that every single person in Englewood is either a murderer or a soon-to-be murder victim, but that's not true either. While the rate of violent crime in Englewood is outrageously and tragically high compared to most of the Western world, still the vast majority of the people there manage to live their lives without murdering or getting murdered. And as a visitor in broad daylight, the risk is really minimal. You get some people eying you suspiciously, some people asking for money, and lots of people trying to sell you drugs, but other than that I've never had any problem in Englewood. Of the people I've met in Englewood and similar neighborhoods (I don't have close friends there or anything, of course, just having chatted with a few people a little bit here and there over the years), mostly they seem like just fairly normal people trying to get by. So, I think it's worth spending a little time there now and then, to see an interesting and significant but commonly overlooked aspect of Chicago's past, present, and future, and to lend a little firsthand context to the stories you hear on the news. maorothisu mentioned food options in some of the rougher South Side neighborhoods, and there are some awesome places on the West and South Sides in general, but unfortunately I haven't found much in Englewood. I stopped in a barbecue/rib place on 59th Street one time a few years ago, and some kind of sandwich place on 63rd Street one day last year, and neither were anything special. Certainly nothing like Lem's or any of the fantastic barbecue/rib/Southern food places on 75th Street or further south. marothisu also referred to the restaurant affiliated with the culinary program at the new Kennedy-King College campus in Englewood. I've heard of that place, and heard mixed reactions to it, but I've never been there. It sounds interesting, though, and maybe worth checking out in the future some time when in the Englewood area.
Anyway, it's a free country, and anyone can go or not go wherever they want to. It's none of my business. I just objected a little when Heyooooo told the OP that nobody here "has any reason" to go to certain parts of the West Side or South Side unless they're into gangs or drugs. Personally, I disagree, and I would encourage medicalguy30 and anyone else to get out and see and explore all parts of Chicago as much as they want to, including the "bad" areas, both because many of those areas are intrinsically interesting and worthwhile, and because it's healthy to be as broad-minded as possible. I'm certainly not opposed to the North Side, though. I love the North Side, too, have spent a ton of time there over the years, and there is of course a fantastic array of wonderful places to go and things to do on the North Side of Chicago as well. But it just seems to me like a shame for someone to arbitrarily limit their scope by categorically avoiding whole sections of the city or the region. But anyone can do whatever they want.
Last edited by tompope; 02-02-2013 at 12:00 PM..
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