Chicago - "Meanest city in the US"? (Springfield: sales, city hall)

[M TYPE X]

This is an important question: did Daley really 'save' Chicago from a fate like the other midwestern hellholes? It's an interesting thesis and needs to be explored in depth.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by southwest1230

Lookout kid, you just answered the question. What you just said sums it all up here. VERY good point. The gist of your comment is that we have set such a low bar per the availability of areas in our major cities middle-class folks would feel comfortable living in, that 30-40% nice, and 60% ghetto
is an acceptable mix.
Some conclusions from the latter:
1.) In a city as large as Chicago, 30% vibrancy is acceptable. 30-40% of 3 million is still 1 - 1.3 million people. That's larger than most cities, technically. If the gentrified north lakeshore areas were a city, it would rank just below Dallas as the 10th largest city. The even bigger conclusion? The section of Chicago we are writing off in Chicago....(you know, the part with the factories, noisy, smelly areas around midway, streetgangs, and all that good stuff)...would tab 2 million, which would make it the 5th largest city, just behind Houston. Think of that one for a moment with your coffee.....
2.) This will not last forever...(the we feel safe because we are 5 miles away from the ghetto cribs)....Chicago is now feeling the effect big time of the pullout of manufacturing and the slowdown in Real Estate. The tax base is pinched, and now city council is running around like chickens without heads trying to figure out where the funds will come from. Meanwhile, they are floating the idea of increasing the RE taxes, the retail taxes, and a new casino next to Navy Pier. Guess what? When you take services like CTA out of the ghetto, they have a tendency to act out. Just a way humans in general with no hope in their heart act, lashing out in general. The lakefront area will see a big rise in crime at that point. You already here of rapes rising. You haven't seen anything yet. That 30% may not maintain itself if that happens. If the G's make things hard on the trust fund set, they will be the first to hightail it back to Winnetka.
3.) Its a fricking illusion, when all is said and done.......Chicago, the real Chicago, was built with brawn and sweat. Working folks have always been the heart and soul of this joe six-pack town, re the chicago foods, all high fat comfort foods for working folks(deep dish, vienna beef, cheesecake, ribs, etc.), They are trying to remake a city with a facade that covers up not only the cities true origin(stockyards, mills, working-class folks, unions), but its true vitality. The only time you get a true feel for Chicago as a whole is the taste of Chicago. Here, you really get that mix that in toto is somewhat rough, somewhat edgy, but what the city is all about, warts and all. I miss that Chicago. I think lots of people that move to the NEW chicago have no clue that manufacturing is still a bulwark, and that this is not yet exactly silicon valley. I mean, what would Carl Sandburg write about now? "Give me the city of big bucks, seller of trinkets at navy pier, builder of townhomes and starbucks on every corner?
Sorry.....Just doesn't have the same ring to it..........

1) Chicago has been dealing with the pullout of manufacturing for 25 years. It has weathered it as well as a city can expect to. Look at what that pullout has done to places like Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, etc. Chicago's economy has long been extremely diverse such that the decline of one industry will not cause the entire city to spiral downward.

2) Chicago has weathered real estate downturns far worse than this one. Something tells me we'll make it through this one just fine too. It may take a while for things to swing back upward, but there's still a lot of valuable real estate that will remain valuable by virtue of its proximity to the economic epicenter of the region.

3) By the way, there aren't many places in this city that are 5 miles from some ghetto or another. Most of the nice parts of the city are a lot closer to the 'hood than that, and most of us who live in the city have made peace with the fact that there are some rather not-nice places close by.

3) This city wasn't just built with brawn and sweat. It was also built with investment capital. Huge fortunes were made here. Rich people have lived here ever since it became a transportation hub. So has middle management. The show of money and the white-collar pretensions thereof that you call "a frickin' illusion" are no more or less an authentic part of Chicago than the blue-collar image. Chicago is both. It always has been both. Starbucks is no more out of place here than Portillo's is. "True vitality" means having both. And lastly, nothing is more "authentic Chicago" than change, constant change. Of course Chicago is different from 20 years ago; and that Chicago is different than the Chicago of 40 years ago; which is different from the Chicago of 60 years ago, etc. Chicago is a city that recognizes and honors its past without romanticizing it. A city that romanticizes its past stunts its present and future. I offer as exhibit A: Pittsburgh.

[Attrill]

I certainly understand the nostalgic attachment to an industrial economy, but Chicago hasn't been a majority manufacturing city since since the 50's. Since then advertising, accounting, PR, law firms, and other high end service industries have dominated. It isn't just Chicago that has gone through this transformation, the entire country has, and Chicago would be Detroit if it hadn't changed with the country.

Chicago's poverty rate is about 20%, and I'd say that is about the percentage of the city that is truly blighted. Some of it is gritty, but with all the alleys and trash cans being kept off the streets it's a lot less gritty than Boston, NY, Philly, or most other East coast cities. People are pretty straightforward, but aren't aggressive or intimidating in any way.

Anyone who thinks Chicago is the "meanest" city in the US would probably **** their pants in fear of Barney or Mr. Rogers.

[southwest1230]

Anyone travel to the south suburbs lately? I live in them.......and Daley dumped all the sec.8 folks from the displaced projects out here. We have higher crime out here than most city neighborhoods. I think we have 7 pit bulls on our block alone. So, the game plan was/is to dump all the city undesirables out in the burbs, mostly south. Just the classic sweeping under the rug. They talk about it in that American Pharaoh book. Old man Daley started doing it when he bulldozed 1/3 of hyde park, bringing it from 25 to 50 % white overnight. Same with little village, but in that case poor ethnics, when they built UICC. Even our US congressman, jessie jackson jr, rails against it in more detail than I have here in congressional testimony. Again, back to my main point....the city just dumps people out-of-area, brings in the
middle and upper-class, and lets the suburbs worry about it. Now we have several school districts, including hazel crest, that are insolvent. Our high schools are now over 95% black where I am. Thats not good for any of us. And we are now as segregated as anytime pre "Brown vs. the board of education".....
Something to think about!

[southwest1230]

[quote=Tex?Il?;1832531]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

I was recently looking at some census data for the city of Chicago, and was shocked to see that the percentage of jobs in manufacturing in the city were lower than the percentage of jobs in manufacturing for the country as a whole. That's right, Chicago is not really a manufacturing town anymore! QUOTE]

I wonder what it would be for the whole metropolitan area. I wonder how the south suburbs and the near west suburbs would affect that.

Tex, take a ride starting in Gary by the Steel Mills in NW IND, proceed west past the BP refineries in Whiting, continue west past the Ford plants in south chicago and thereabouts, past all the trucking and light industrial companies all over alsip and environs, then past summit with the food processing and candy factories, cut back east past the south and west sides, and look at all the still extant plants belching smoke, than go north past the northwest side, with more light manufacturing and heavy-duty plants...........finally, remember that those are living-wage jobs, as opposed to much of the service industry non-union crap they are replacing it with, and run those stats again! yes, the metro area has more service as a whole, but not the city and inner ring suburbs.........the city still belches smoke like a beast, and is still that proverbial warm dung wrapped in a macy's box....

[Drover]

Originally Posted by M TYPE X

This is an important question: did Daley really 'save' Chicago from a fate like the other midwestern hellholes? It's an interesting thesis and needs to be explored in depth.

He had a hand in it. Outside factors helped, like an improved national economy and a hugely diverse city economy that predates him. But his recognition that you need a viable business climate has been a factor too. So has his recognition that aesthetic details matter, that the perception that people actually cares about the appearance of the city will attract those who do care, and it sets an example for everyone. In other words, cleanliness and civic pride go hand-in-hand. Too many cities overlook that fact IMO.

[southwest1230]

Originally Posted by M TYPE X

This is an important question: did Daley really 'save' Chicago from a fate like the other midwestern hellholes? It's an interesting thesis and needs to be explored in depth.

I hate to say it, but that is indeed the case. Also, his son may have kept/attracted more money than even the old man in the city. How? Well, for old man daley, he just acted over the heads of everyone when necessary. If he didn't, he went through the motions of going through "committee", which was just for show. The loop business community acted in concert with daley through organizations, pretty much just them and daley made all the decisions that you see in the loop now. They would ask Daley, he would give the green light and give them what they needed, and before you know it he was at the ribbon-cutting ceremony. The son is just as bullheaded, bulldozing meigs field overnight, without any consultation with city council, just a call to the park district to bulldoze the runways to obliteration. Now it has capitol one pavilion on it......see how they get things done? There's your answer.....The two Daleys in concert kept Chicago from going the way of Detroit and Cleveland. Just a little more than a nod to Daniel Burnham for the Chicago Plan that kept the lakefront intact......maybe that more than anything did the trick!

[southwest1230]

Originally Posted by Drover

1) Chicago has been dealing with the pullout of manufacturing for 25 years. It has weathered it as well as a city can expect to. Look at what that pullout has done to places like Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, etc. Chicago's economy has long been extremely diverse such that the decline of one industry will not cause the entire city to spiral downward.

2) Chicago has weathered real estate downturns far worse than this one. Something tells me we'll make it through this one just fine too. It may take a while for things to swing back upward, but there's still a lot of valuable real estate that will remain valuable by virtue of its proximity to the economic epicenter of the region.

3) By the way, there aren't many places in this city that are 5 miles from some ghetto or another. Most of the nice parts of the city are a lot closer to the 'hood than that, and most of us who live in the city have made peace with the fact that there are some rather not-nice places close by.

3) This city wasn't just built with brawn and sweat. It was also built with investment capital. Huge fortunes were made here. Rich people have lived here ever since it became a transportation hub. So has middle management. The show of money and the white-collar pretensions thereof that you call "a frickin' illusion" are no more or less an authentic part of Chicago than the blue-collar image. Chicago is both. It always has been both. Starbucks is no more out of place here than Portillo's is. "True vitality" means having both. And lastly, nothing is more "authentic Chicago" than change, constant change. Of course Chicago is different from 20 years ago; and that Chicago is different than the Chicago of 40 years ago; which is different from the Chicago of 60 years ago, etc. Chicago is a city that recognizes and honors its past without romanticizing it. A city that romanticizes its past stunts its present and future. I offer as exhibit A: Pittsburgh.

hehee...sounds like you are from Pitt! Very well said....better than I could have....yes, the robber barron potter palmers, pullmans, fields, and armours were certainly around since the late 1800's, and have always lived in their sheltered little coves and hamlets in the city and then suburbs. They started out on prairie avenue and LSD, then spread out south to Beverly/hydepark/south shore, and north to winnetka, evanston, and lake forest......unfortunately, they have sold their working breathren down the tubes of of late, outsourcing everything that can't be nailed down or CAN be streamed over the web. Right now they take great pride in the gentrification of Chicago, while an entire working-class generation is swept under the rug and discarded....We have a displaced area larger than flint michigan, actually larger than detroit, but it is just less obvious with the overall metro size.....All in all, the chicago rich are no good, and want to live in their little illusion of fifth avenue fronting a stinky cesspool of pollution and ghettos right behind them in every direction. Better to pretend it doesn't exist as one sups his cappocino....

[southwest1230]

Originally Posted by Attrill

I certainly understand the nostalgic attachment to an industrial economy, but Chicago hasn't been a majority manufacturing city since since the 50's. Since then advertising, accounting, PR, law firms, and other high end service industries have dominated. It isn't just Chicago that has gone through this transformation, the entire country has, and Chicago would be Detroit if it hadn't changed with the country.

Chicago's poverty rate is about 20%, and I'd say that is about the percentage of the city that is truly blighted. Some of it is gritty, but with all the alleys and trash cans being kept off the streets it's a lot less gritty than Boston, NY, Philly, or most other East coast cities. People are pretty straightforward, but aren't aggressive or intimidating in any way.

Anyone who thinks Chicago is the "meanest" city in the US would probably **** their pants in fear of Barney or Mr. Rogers.

Adrill, the main concern is what these cities do with their displaced workers. Chicago was the manufacturing center of the WORLD at one point. It actually took the nod over NYC at the turn of the century. In the 50's you mention, entire sectors of the city, with a population of at least 2 million plus, were manufacturing neighborhoods.....take, for example, South Chicago, or the East Side.....a whole culture evolved around manufacturing in those neighborhoods, with high school trade schools like CVS, where Dick Butkus went to school, and such. Generations were in the trades. Same in many suburbs, especially the inner ring ones like Cicero and Stickney and such. What they have done is write off the displaced workers and neighborhoods, just like "roger and me" in Flint, Mi., little by little as time went on. They allowed the vacuum of lost jobs to create black and hispanic ghettos in their place. This has continued to this day with the dumping of sec.8 residents to the south suburbs, which is the new south side. You can't write off generations of blue-collar workers as an externality, anymore than you can write off pollution. And the problem in both cases comes to bite you in the butt anyway. BTW, Chicago is losing its olympic bid for the very reasons I just mentioned. The city has fooled itself, and has chased the industrial tax base out of the city. Now it can't float the CTA, and the word is they have essentially lost the bid because of it.......see, all things come round again to bite one in the *ss!

[Drover]

Originally Posted by southwest1230

hehee...sounds like you are from Pitt! Very well said....better than I could have....yes, the robber barron potter palmers, pullmans, fields, and armours were certainly around since the late 1800's, and have always lived in their sheltered little coves and hamlets in the city and then suburbs. They started out on prairie avenue and LSD, then spread out south to Beverly/hydepark/south shore, and north to winnetka, evanston, and lake forest......unfortunately, they have sold their working breathren down the tubes of of late, outsourcing everything that can't be nailed down or CAN be streamed over the web. Right now they take great pride in the gentrification of Chicago, while an entire working-class generation is swept under the rug and discarded....We have a displaced area larger than flint michigan, actually larger than detroit, but it is just less obvious with the overall metro size.....All in all, the chicago rich are no good, and want to live in their little illusion of fifth avenue fronting a stinky cesspool of pollution and ghettos right behind them in every direction. Better to pretend it doesn't exist as one sups his cappocino....

Wow. How incredibly bitter and cynical. Just... wow.