Chicago is Booming! (Forest Park, Albany, Time: price, floor, stores)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by knitgirl

you have to rep Chet for that!

Besides which, that was probably his most succinct post ever!

[mattywo85]

Originally Posted by Irishtom29

I like Panera and Culver's. Anyone who doesn't approve can kiss my fat Irish ass.

So you like overpriced fast food lol....jk....but not really.

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by williepotatoes

Gotta disagree. By the mid 80's, the decline was well under way. White flight and a huge turnover of longtime established businesses was irreversible by that time. The Polish sector north of Central Park
was still strong, but things from Logan boulevard to CP were slipping bigtime. Milwaukee and Diversey
was almost unrecognizable to me by 1990.

Today, even the Polish strip has pretty much withered away.

Well, unlike you and Lookout, I was actually living in Logan Square in 1985, and the area in question was two blocks from my house.

What you and your yuppie friends fail to realize is that one of the negative aspects of gentrification (and probably THE most insidious one, in my opinion) is the destruction of the local small businesses that serve the ethnic communities.

Yuppies, it turns out, are far better at talking about the wonders of small business than they are at actually walking into them and plunking down their hard-earned cash. Truth is, they avoid ethnic businesses like the plague, and, in fact, people like you and Lookout take the really sick (in my opinion) position of judging the quality of a neighborhood by how few of them remain. Unless they are up eating or establishments, of course, provided they are not Eastern European (which maybe you like but most yuppies HATE beet soup and stuffed cabbage).

So what has basically happened to Milwaukee Avenue is that the the Spanish and Polish speaking dollar stores, package-to-Poland businesses, and ethnic grocery stores are all gone, replaced by empty storefronts - because hipsters and yuppies prefer to shop at the chain stores on Elston. And instead of salsa music, you hear nothing but traffic.

That may be progress by your definition, but it is not by mine, and it makes me sad. Which is why I say 1985 Milwaukee Avenue was far livelier and more interesting than the near ghost town that it is today.

[mjtinmemphis]

Nearwestsider,

Before coming to Chicago, I had no real experience living in as big city and I thought that gentrification was a good thing.

Now I would run as far as I can get from those neighborhoods. I find them boring like the suburbs. The reason I like Chicago is because of it's diversity of things to do. I couldn't imagine a "Chicago experience" without diversity.

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by Attrill

The southern stretch of Milwaukee in Logan Square was pretty dismal in the late 80's/early 90's. A lot of gang activity, and plenty of closed storefronts. Even today on weekend mornings the southern stretch is full of Elotes Vendors, guys selling produce and vegetables out the back of pick ups, the van guys by Marianao, etc. There's actually more of that activity than I saw in the 80's/90's. Further north it has changed a bit, but there is still the Mega Mall and all of the vendors on the street that it brings. Things like the Farmer's Market haven't driven any street life out. Going north past the square the neighborhood got more and more Polish as you went North. Some of those businesses have fallen away, but hell, what neighborhood, suburb, or small town looks just like it did 30 years ago?

I think your perspective is 180 degrees from reality. I would guess the only time you visit Logan Square when you're joining the "fuzz-faced wankers" to see a show at the Congress or Logan Auditorium. If you actually lived in Logan Square you might have a clue about it.

I lived on Campbell just south of Fullerton in 1977. Back in those days it wasn't Logan Square, nor was it West Bucktown. It was just kind of there, and while it wasn't upscale by any stretch of the imagination, it wasn't awful by any means, either. The fact that you even consider anything in the Western/Milwaukee/Fullerton triangle part of Logan Square - and the fact that you consider it some kind of ghetto - shows YOUR roots in that area are not very deep.

No, I am talking about Milwaukee from Diversey south to Fullerton, the heart of Logan Square. I owned a two flat right off Logan Boulevard just East of Kedzie in 1985, long before you or your friends moved in.

I have no idea why you even mentioned it, but when I lived in Logan, the Congress theater was a movie house specializing in Mexican Ranchero movies. The only reason I know it was there is because El Cid Tacos was my go-to taco joint way back then, and it used to be just south of it (before they opened the one on Kedzie).

The Mega Mall was once a window factory, and that strip of Milwaukee has never fully recovered from its closing. Fortunately, Father and Son Pizza is still going strong, otherwise that stretch would be a complete desert.

Bottom line: I am dumbfounded how anyone could say that Milwaukee Avenue is in better shape today. Hell, even the Miami-style Cuban coffee joint I used to get espresso shots and Cuban sandwiches at (you know, the one North of the boulevard half way to Diversey) has gone pretentious/upscale with very little business to show for it. Tania's is gone. I can go on and on, but if you really want to believe that Milwaukee Avenue is booming because a bunch of scruffy-looking, low-income American drop-outs have moved in, you are welcome to your opinion.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

I lived on Campbell just south of Fullerton in 1977. Back in those days it wasn't Logan Square, nor was it West Bucktown. It was just kind of there, and while it wasn't upscale by any stretch of the imagination, it wasn't awful by any means, either. The fact that you even consider anything in the Western/Milwaukee/Fullerton triangle part of Logan Square - and the fact that you consider it some kind of ghetto - shows YOUR roots in that area are not very deep.

I never called it a ghetto, or even implied that. Where in the world did you get that from?


I think you've got some issues that you're reading into what I posted, and seemed to ignore the points I made. Please reread my post in the context of what I was responding to and stop setting up crazy straw men arguments.

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that Cafe Con Leche is still a successful business, and sorry you have a complex about anyone under 30 living in Logan Square. The fact is any decrease of business in the area were well under way in the 80's, and crime was higher in the area in the 80's and 90's. None of that was caused by any influx of new people, it was issues that were occurring on the national level. What's happening now is a growth in new business in an area that has the space to accommodate it without pushing out the old places - and that's what's happening.

For the record I'm well into my forties with a family, and would in no way be considered a "hipster". And it has been Logan Square since the 1920's when Community areas were defined, and the 1978 survey of residents showed it as being considered as Logan Square by residents. There is no such thing as West Bucktown.

[key4lp]

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

Well, unlike you and Lookout, I was actually living in Logan Square in 1985, and the area in question was two blocks from my house.

What you and your yuppie friends fail to realize is that one of the negative aspects of gentrification (and probably THE most insidious one, in my opinion) is the destruction of the local small businesses that serve the ethnic communities.

Yuppies, it turns out, are far better at talking about the wonders of small business than they are at actually walking into them and plunking down their hard-earned cash. Truth is, they avoid ethnic businesses like the plague, and, in fact, people like you and Lookout take the really sick (in my opinion) position of judging the quality of a neighborhood by how few of them remain. Unless they are up eating or establishments, of course, provided they are not Eastern European (which maybe you like but most yuppies HATE beet soup and stuffed cabbage).

So what has basically happened to Milwaukee Avenue is that the the Spanish and Polish speaking dollar stores, package-to-Poland businesses, and ethnic grocery stores are all gone, replaced by empty storefronts - because hipsters and yuppies prefer to shop at the chain stores on Elston. And instead of salsa music, you hear nothing but traffic.

That may be progress by your definition, but it is not by mine, and it makes me sad. Which is why I say 1985 Milwaukee Avenue was far livelier and more interesting than the near ghost town that it is today.

Well said. Your quote about yuppies avoiding ethic businesses is exactly right. That's what opened
my world growing up and living in Chicago. I learned so much about the world in my "own back yard"
and their fear, hesitancy or what ever stops them from trying something new - is the reason
those neighborhoods seem cliche and uninspiring.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by key4lp

Well said. Your quote about yuppies avoiding ethic businesses is exactly right. That's what opened
my world growing up and living in Chicago. I learned so much about the world in my "own back yard"
and their fear, hesitancy or what ever stops them from trying something new - is the reason
those neighborhoods seem cliche and uninspiring.

Do you really think the problem is yuppies avoiding ethnic businesses? Sorry to burst your bubble, but many small local grocers went out of business because everyone started avoiding them. And this happened decades ago, not just from a recent influx of "hipsters" or "yuppies" or whatever you want to call it. They were out of business long before any "yuppies" arrived. You can also blame the fact that the first generation Polish and Mexican kids who grew up in the neighborhood in the 70's left for the 'burbs in the 80's and 90's.

One of the biggest culprits in the death of the small places is Family Dollar, which has taken the place of the small local places in many neighborhoods. Even recent immigrants only use the small stores if they're looking for specialty items, otherwise they're going to Jewel, Family Dollar, Target, Costco, Walmart, etc.

My neighbors on both sides of me are all immigrants from Mexico (and their 1st generation US kids) and they do a trip out to Walmart in Forest Park every Sunday after church. I see the illegal day laborers who rent their top floor doing all their grocery shopping at CVS all the time. There's a local place nearby, at California and Milwaukee, but they've never even been there.

The California/Milwaukee Produce place is actually a great example of a place that is doing it right. The selection is really limited, but they have a great selection of Mexican ingredients, including fresh tortillas from Atotonilco, El Milagro, Los Comanches, etc. They also have an actual butcher who will cut things to order. All of their food is great and dirt cheap. On the flip side, you'd be insane to buy things like paper towels or trash bags there - they're almost all poor quality and very overpriced. They seem to recognize that and a few years ago cut the number of household items they sell and focused more on food. The place is doing well and has a good mix of customers from all different backgrounds.

[rubbersoul89]

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

I can go on and on, but if you really want to believe that Milwaukee Avenue is booming because a bunch of scruffy-looking, low-income American drop-outs have moved in, you are welcome to your opinion.

wait...a few posts ago they were yuppies.

yuppies tend to have plenty of money.

[ChiNaan]

Originally Posted by rubbersoul89

wait...a few posts ago they were yuppies.

They're whatever names he wants to call them-- even if they directly contradict each other, apparently. It makes no sense, of course, but none of his other ranting about LS in this thread does, either, so in a strange way it fits.