06-30-2013, 03:28 PM
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Checked out the new Plum Market on Wells just north of Division. Similar to Whole Foods. Very expensive. I think I'll keep doing the bulk of my shopping at the Jewel at Clark and Division.
06-30-2013, 04:48 PM
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
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You could have learned the same information from a quick Google search before going, no offfense... that's what Plum Market has always been billed as.
06-30-2013, 06:55 PM
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I wonder how the long term financial of places like Mariano's or Pete's will work out. I seem to recall that Dominick's spent a lot of money upgrading stores to have the emphasis on carry-out items / cafe / conveniently prepped produce but after the sale to Safeway those changes were undone.
The margins in all grocery stores are razor thin. Organizations like Aldi / Trade Joes manage to eek out a profit with a major emphasis on house brands and very tight logistics. Don't see how stretching distribution can't be very costly for the smaller number of stores...
06-30-2013, 08:38 PM
Location: Chicago
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Hmm, was that area really hurting for another market? I wonder what makes this place much preferable than all the other markets within a couple short miles of that location?
06-30-2013, 08:59 PM
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
eevee
Hmm, was that area really hurting for another market? I wonder what makes this place much preferable than all the other markets within a couple short miles of that location?
Well, let's see...Plum Market is like a smaller Whole Foods. Organic, natural, etc. There is a Jewel a few blocks away, but that's not what a lot of people see. Let's get real here. The building this is in is 1225 Old Town. It was just sold at the highest price per square foot per unit in the city's entire history. There's 250 units, and it's $632,000 per unit. The units are sold out. Not to mention some of the nice condos/houses/etc in the area too. The people in the area can more than afford it and don't really care about bargain shopping at Jewel.
Not only that, but yes. The immediate area doesn't really have a market. The Jewel at Clark & Division and the Treasure Island a little south of there are the only markets for a little bit at least in the immediate area. If you're paying $600,000+ for a one bedroom condo in the middle of the city, I hope you have a market close by and don't have to walk a few blocks to get it.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...ason-returning
06-30-2013, 09:15 PM
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Many places that are downtown have residents that ...
...never visit a grocery store! High sales price really is not an indication of the potential for retail grocers to succeed. The track record of food stores on / near Michicgan Ave is abysmal.
Sad fact is that the "investors" in too many of the grocers that locate near high priced residential real estate often have very poor handle on the lifestyle of folks in such areas -- for everyone one person that indulges a "hobby" of cooking exotic meals there are dozens that are likely eating out more than eating at home. When it comes to some of the "catering" type operations that some of the wannabe high end grocers run the fact is that folks in the costly residential units are often eating lighter and more "trendy" than folks in more pedestrian areas -- that gives a distinct edge to the small caters that can be more "creative".
07-01-2013, 09:03 AM
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
eevee
Hmm, was that area really hurting for another market? I wonder what makes this place much preferable than all the other markets within a couple short miles of that location?
*miles*?
I've lived in Chicago for most of the past 18 years and I've never regularly patronized a grocery store more than a mile from my home. Sure I've popped into Fox and Obel on occasion or tried out a new place just to see what it's all about, but for groceries I would never go miles for groceries. I suppose people who drive everywhere might, but even when I've had regular access to a car, I've rarely used it to drive miles for groceries - that just sounds ridiculous to me.
And specifically in that area, even among the high-income people, many walk most places. The Jewel on Division is run down and probably won't be updated until they completely reconstruct it with a tower on top (plans underway), the Dominicks on Division is an option, although not especially pedestrian-friendly (not terrible, but not ideal), and from that location the Treasure Island on Wells and Potash Bros on Clark are about a 1/2 mile walk, which is pretty far to carry groceries or for a quick run to get something. Not to mention that in the past 10 years there has not only been the development that that's in, but also the tower across the street and one around the corner build. And there are a number of other high-density plans in the work with a 5-minute walk of that site, so there is probably enough demand now, and there will be even more demand in the not-so-distant future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marothisu
Well, let's see...Plum Market is like a smaller Whole Foods. Organic, natural, etc. There is a Jewel a few blocks away, but that's not what a lot of people see. Let's get real here. The building this is in is 1225 Old Town. It was just sold at the highest price per square foot per unit in the city's entire history. There's 250 units, and it's $632,000 per unit. The units are sold out. Not to mention some of the nice condos/houses/etc in the area too. The people in the area can more than afford it and don't really care about bargain shopping at Jewel.
Not only that, but yes. The immediate area doesn't really have a market. The Jewel at Clark & Division and the Treasure Island a little south of there are the only markets for a little bit at least in the immediate area. If you're paying $600,000+ for a one bedroom condo in the middle of the city, I hope you have a market close by and don't have to walk a few blocks to get it.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/artic...ason-returning
I concur.
07-01-2013, 09:28 AM
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While I agree that convenience is factor...
...the larger question of just how many grocers are sustainable is something that should be a concern.
There is long history of failure in the grocery business. Treasure Island has been through multiple bankruptcies, there was once a Bockwinkles in the same vertical mall that is home to Bloomingdale's on Michigan Ave.
Grocers eek out an existence on razor thin margins and even stores that appear crowded often are not profitable. There is little relationship between high cost residential units and the propensity of residents to spend money in a nearby grocer -- often times these residents are likely to eat many more meals outside the home than folks in a more moderate priced residential area. Folks that decry the low wages of nonunion stores ought to give some consideration of what their own patronage supports.
Though emathis is probably not unique among city dwellers that prefer not to drive to grocers the relative success of a grocer based only on presence of high cost residential units is quite poor. Many developers offer some incentive to grocers for locating nearby in the hope that will prove attractive to potential residential customers as well as spur asociated retail. The long term success of such strategies is often poor as the ultimate profit / loss is more complex than just "closest wins". Even when it comes to higher margin items like prepared food and catering I have seen many grocers with what seems like terrific location close their doors / change hands.
When any business fails it ultimately should be a lesson to others but those with no sense of history will repeat the same mistakes.
07-01-2013, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
emathias
*miles*?
I've lived in Chicago for most of the past 18 years and I've never regularly patronized a grocery store more than a mile from my home. Sure I've popped into Fox and Obel on occasion or tried out a new place just to see what it's all about, but for groceries I would never go miles for groceries. I suppose people who drive everywhere might, but even when I've had regular access to a car, I've rarely used it to drive miles for groceries - that just sounds ridiculous to me.
And specifically in that area, even among the high-income people, many walk most places. The Jewel on Division is run down and probably won't be updated until they completely reconstruct it with a tower on top (plans underway), the Dominicks on Division is an option, although not especially pedestrian-friendly (not terrible, but not ideal), and from that location the Treasure Island on Wells and Potash Bros on Clark are about a 1/2 mile walk, which is pretty far to carry groceries or for a quick run to get something. Not to mention that in the past 10 years there has not only been the development that that's in, but also the tower across the street and one around the corner build. And there are a number of other high-density plans in the work with a 5-minute walk of that site, so there is probably enough demand now, and there will be even more demand in the not-so-distant future.
I concur.
Thoughtful post. Better than others in this thread.
Last edited by Vlajos; 07-01-2013 at 05:05 PM ..
07-02-2013, 09:54 AM
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vlajos
Thoughtful post. Better than others in this thread.
But I did forget about the Treasure Island on Elm, which isn't too bad of a walk from there. I like Treasure Island, but it's kind of a weird chain of stores and I think a lot of newcomers find them a bit drab and disorganized. The European markets they seem to aim to mimic are more like the European markets of 30 years ago than how contemporary Europeans shop. I'd like to see TI try to either restructure as a totally modern market with a European theme, or to model themselves after the French Market under the tracks at Ogilvie. Either model would be preferable to their current stores.
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People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)