Jackie Robinson West stripped of its national title (Chicago, Evergreen Park: price, racism)

[MPowering1]

Originally Posted by Chuckity

It's sad for the kids who played - but there were kids from Homewood, Lynwood, Lansing, etc. on that team ... how is that fair? You want to pick and choose who is on your team - that's what travel ball is for - NOT Little League.

Ugh.

I'm even more disgusted by Jesse Jackson & Father Pfleger jumping into the mix with the immediate cry of "it was racism!"

It wasn't. It was rules.

The guy from Evergreen Park who blew this whistle on this is about as far from being a racist as one could get.

Father Pfleger's judgement about right vs wrong is so skewed that it's sickening to hear him, and nobody knows how to add to the stirring of the pot like him and his sidekick, Jesse. I think he was the one saying in a news conference this was racially motivated and all 16 teams should be thoroughly investigated. All the teams didn't come in first, that's why they were investigated, you bloviating gasbag.

And then to send up the mother who said she lives in Chicago was another joke. Good for you, sweetheart. Sadly, not everyone on your team can make that statement, but I suspect that's why they're sitting in silence.

Terrible role models for the poor kids, who certainly did nothing to deserve this, but shouldn't have been allowed to keep the trophy either.

What a mess.

[UKWildcat1981]

Originally Posted by MassVt

It's the same kind of mentality that middle-aged guys have for their alma mater's football/basketball/etc team. Why would a 55 yo guy get all animated/upset about the fortunes of a collegiate football team? Doesn't he have more important things to be worried about? Let the current players/students/coaches worry about it, not some long-since graduated guy trying to relive the old days. I'll never understand these crazy alumni...

Like AL Bundy said "I once scored 4 TD's in a game Peg"

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by Attrill

I think Little League International is completely schizophrenic, which is what caused this entire situation.

On one hand they are responsible for running a high stakes playoff series, where it makes sense to have strict rules to prevent coaches from building a team of ringers. Unfortunately they do absolutely nothing to verify or even facilitate the creating maps of who is eligible to play, and leave that to a patchwork of different local volunteer organizations.

On the other hand they are running an organization to promote baseball among kids, and get as many kids to play as they can. That's why they're very lenient on letting kids who attend a private or charter school outside where they reside to play in a division. It's why kids can choose different parents, guardians, or relatives to list for their residence. It's why kids get grandfathered into divisions even when they move. In short - they make the rules incredibly lenient to allow as many kids as possible to play.

Most of the time this leniency allows kids to keep playing with their friends. To allow them to be part of a team that has the most convenient location for them (anytime you draw borders, someone is inconvenienced by being at the edge of the border). Some teams in areas with low participation wouldn't exist if they weren't lax with the rules. This sort of logic applies to the vast majority of teams out there.

There is however a smaller group of teams that has been using the unclear rules and non-existent enforcement as a way to build powerhouse teams. Pretty much every regional championship team falls into this category. Little League has tolerated this in order to have higher quality games at the national level (thereby getting better TV contracts) and to have the best team possible reach the international level (if they enforce the rules applied to JWR nationally, the US will get slaughtered in international competition every year).

If the rules were clear, and had been enforced in the past, I would have no problem with them taking back the title. I'd also have no problem if they declared that they're cracking down next year, and telling every team to get it together. I would even be fine if they had checked the eligibility of every teams' players before beginning the national championship. I think it is a total load of crap to run the league as they always have, and then change their minds after the season is long over.

I have seen the same kind of out-of-whack enforcement / non-enforcement with kids in other sports too. I pretty much always comes down to somebody on one side making a buck off the loopholes and somebody on the other side really trying to keep the perspective that it is KIDS PLAYING GAME regardless of whether that means that down the road that kid who sees adults "bending some rules" sets a pattern of not following the rules for reporting grades or scholarships or a nice little sports car for mom (or after all 9 times out 10 really did bust her butt to hustle the kids to practice to practice for a decade or more while she tried to hold down a crap job...) from some generous alumnus / sports booster or worse had call girls delivered to the dorm...

Uniform rules across international borders are basically impossible. I mean the fact is other countries are really "not like us" in terms of size / scale / access to media. Not to get too far off the rails, but I have pal that works for a private social service agency in San Diego. He tells that about 2-3 years ago Mexico set up a pretty decent system of "universal healthcare" (you can look it up, nobody calls it "Nieto-care" but they could...) but it only "works" for a tiny fraction of the population because though their population is about 1/3 of the US they only have about 22M physicians while we have over 170M, do the math...

[jonnynonos]

It was odd how everyone jumped to the conclusion that the kids didn't know anything about it. I don't know if they did or they didn't, and they're just kids anyway, but I don't see any reason to assume they didn't know and the adults did.

A sad outcome for sure.

[personone]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

It was odd how everyone jumped to the conclusion that the kids didn't know anything about it. I don't know if they did or they didn't, and they're just kids anyway, but I don't see any reason to assume they didn't know and the adults did.

A sad outcome for sure.

I'm not sure. Would the kids be actually be thinking about 'where' they are playing or league rules? I guess if they are travelling a distance to get to practice it may kick into their mind, but I'm thinking the rules about who can play on the team would be the coach/manager. It could have been a situation where the coaches 'recruited' these kids and the kids just simply agreed. I remember when I played little league sports, all I was thinking about was playing, not about any league rules.

[ChicagoMeO]

Originally Posted by Drover

Maybe it's time for the grown-ups to step back and reflect on the original purpose of Little League? Was it worth putting the kids through this for your own brief moment of vicarious glory?

Jackie Robinson West stripped of Little League title - Chicago Tribune

I think they were so excited that some good was coming out of Chicago. especially when all the news is "30 shootings on the west side and south side" so for a bunch of these great kids being a good example of what can come out of a bad neighborhood, i can see why they'd be happy about the kids. they seemed like really great kids.. not being all gang bangers and such like that.

one news report said it was not the kids fault but whomever didnt follow the rules about who to recuit for the team.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

It was odd how everyone jumped to the conclusion that the kids didn't know anything about it. I don't know if they did or they didn't, and they're just kids anyway, but I don't see any reason to assume they didn't know and the adults did.

A sad outcome for sure.

Even if the kids knew "something" was up, I don't blame them for deferring to the judgment of the authority figures overseeing them. That's what kids their age are supposed to do; unfortunately the grown-ups didn't live up to the responsibilities expected of them as leaders. It wasn't really the kids' obligation to go to the media or Little League officials or whoever and say "hey, we think our coaches are putting together a ringer team."

[jonnynonos]

Originally Posted by personone

I'm not sure. Would the kids be actually be thinking about 'where' they are playing or league rules? I guess if they are travelling a distance to get to practice it may kick into their mind, but I'm thinking the rules about who can play on the team would be the coach/manager. It could have been a situation where the coaches 'recruited' these kids and the kids just simply agreed. I remember when I played little league sports, all I was thinking about was playing, not about any league rules.

I don't know, but I find convenient narratives... convenient.

I don't "blame" the kids; I just think the default conclusion that the adults are the wrongdoers and the kids wholly ignorant odd.

It would be nice if it were true.

[Zimbochick]

People are acting as though they flew kids in from different states. The Patriots cheat and win the Super Bowl, these kids are from barely outside of the area and it's the end of times.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by jonnynonos

I don't know, but I find convenient narratives... convenient.

I don't "blame" the kids; I just think the default conclusion that the adults are the wrongdoers and the kids wholly ignorant odd.

It would be nice if it were true.

The adults were the wrongdoers. The kids didn't orchestrate this fraud, their "role models" did. The worst offense the kids could be accused of was to follow the adults' lead, which is perfectly understandable for kids that age.

Originally Posted by Zimbochick

People are acting as though they flew kids in from different states. The Patriots cheat and win the Super Bowl, these kids are from barely outside of the area and it's the end of times.

They cheated. They got caught. There were consequences. The end.