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Old 11-25-2015, 12:57 AM
 
347 posts, read 516,807 times
Reputation: 603

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Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Also, no offense but you seem to have trouble reading. I posted numerous responses directly to your thought that the middle class is "very little" and directly told you that the middle class is disappearing, as it is everywhere. How hard is it to understand that my Census statistics have to do with your assertation that the middle class is "very little" - my responses have next to nothing to do with the disappearing act and it has been spelled out more than clearly every single time.
LOL! You imply that I'm trolling, and then you engage in personal attacks. That's kind of hypocritical. OK, I should have emphasized, right away, that what I consider middle class, there's very little left of in Chicago....because after all, there is no one universal definition of middle class. One's definition of middle class can depend upon a lot of things.

Anyway, I think this argument is getting stupid. We both agree that the "middle class" in Chicago is disappearing, which in fairness, is a problem in other parts of the country as well, and that the city's financial problems have the potential for serious negative consequences.

But hey, I wish Chicago the best and I hope it gets its house in order, especially for selfish reasons. I want to have fun when I visit.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,771,714 times
Reputation: 7419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Montana View Post
LOL! You imply that I'm trolling, and then you engage in personal attacks. That's kind of hypocritical. OK, I should have emphasized, right away, that what I consider middle class, there's very little left of in Chicago....because after all, there is no one universal definition of middle class. One's definition of middle class can depend upon a lot of things.

Anyway, I think this argument is getting stupid. We both agree that the "middle class" in Chicago is disappearing, which in fairness, is a problem in other parts of the country as well, and that the city's financial problems have the potential for serious negative consequences.

But hey, I wish Chicago the best and I hope it gets its house in order, especially for selfish reasons. I want to have fun when I visit.
Actually, I didn't imply you were trolling at all (which was in another post for the record). Again, please read more carefully before this stuff. This is now the second time you've claimed I've called you a troll when I didn't even close to. Here's the original thing I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
And listen, I don't think you're a troll while others do - but you aren't helping your case in others' minds by trying to somehow argue with me against official US Census Department statistics.
How does that equate to me calling you a troll? When I said what I did in the last post, there's a reason why. I straight up told you I don't think you are, and now for a second time you claim I said it. What gives? I am completely justified right now in calling your reading skill out right now.


Everyone agrees the middle class in Chicago is waning because it's waning almost everywhere (city wise) in America. This isn't even something anybody on here is debating against. You have created your own strawman only to knock it down, when nobody is even disagreeing with you. The only thing I am debating is the fact that you think the middle class in Chicago is "very little" when it's not even close to "very little" - all statistics point to you being wrong in this case.

I have shown you two types of statistics from reputable sources (and I've worked personally with the people at the Census Department. They are trustworthy) - families making $35K-$99,999 and families making $50K - $149,999 per year. Both more than cover a few definitions of middle class. Both statistics and data show that Chicago does not even close to rank lowly and is nearly the same percentage in both categories than Minneapolis and Houston, and not far behind other cities like Dallas and ahead of cities like Los Angeles, Miami, etc. The top cities in the first category, ones like Charlotte, don't even have 5% greater than Chicago. The other category that goes up to almost $150K is almost the same percentage with cities like San Francisco and San Diego. If Chicago has a "very little" middle class, then so does every other city in the US. Are you actually prepared to say that Minneapolis has a very little middle class?


If you choose to ignore statistics, and easy ones at that, then that's your own problem and something that's going to get you into trouble in real life. We're after the truth here, not cherrypicking to fit your own agendas and beliefs. If you have an issue with this, then perhaps you shouldn't even be discussing it with people who can actually bring up real data instead of anecdotal junk, which does not count towards proving anything almost ever.

I'm sorry your judgement is so clouded that you miss simple analysis of data and that you somehow think the US Census Department has the same stupid agendas as the FBI or CIA that you can't even trust them. And even if they did have their own agendas (the only "agenda" they have is collecting the most accurate data so they can have accurate government representation and have enough data to know where certain services such as medical care are missing - I know this because I've actually worked personally with people that are high up in the department), this wouldn't be a Chicago thing. The statistics would be skewed in every city, which would still be proportional and mean that Chicago still has just as large of a middle class percentage wise as cities like Houston and Minneapolis.

Last edited by marothisu; 11-25-2015 at 06:56 AM..
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Old 11-25-2015, 09:50 PM
 
347 posts, read 516,807 times
Reputation: 603
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Actually, I didn't imply you were trolling at all (which was in another post for the record). Again, please read more carefully before this stuff. This is now the second time you've claimed I've called you a troll when I didn't even close to. Here's the original thing I said:


How does that equate to me calling you a troll? When I said what I did in the last post, there's a reason why. I straight up told you I don't think you are, and now for a second time you claim I said it. What gives? I am completely justified right now in calling your reading skill out right now.

You said that most people think I'm a troll, but that you don't. However, you claimed I was ignoring stats, which isn't helping my case. I took that as you implying I'm a troll or at least engaging in trollish behavior. If that wasn't your intent, I'm glad.


Everyone agrees the middle class in Chicago is waning because it's waning almost everywhere (city wise) in America. This isn't even something anybody on here is debating against. You have created your own strawman only to knock it down, when nobody is even disagreeing with you. The only thing I am debating is the fact that you think the middle class in Chicago is "very little" when it's not even close to "very little" - all statistics point to you being wrong in this case.

I have shown you two types of statistics from reputable sources (and I've worked personally with the people at the Census Department. They are trustworthy) - families making $35K-$99,999 and families making $50K - $149,999 per year. Both more than cover a few definitions of middle class. Both statistics and data show that Chicago does not even close to rank lowly and is nearly the same percentage in both categories than Minneapolis and Houston, and not far behind other cities like Dallas and ahead of cities like Los Angeles, Miami, etc. The top cities in the first category, ones like Charlotte, don't even have 5% greater than Chicago. The other category that goes up to almost $150K is almost the same percentage with cities like San Francisco and San Diego. If Chicago has a "very little" middle class, then so does every other city in the US. Are you actually prepared to say that Minneapolis has a very little middle class?


If you choose to ignore statistics, and easy ones at that, then that's your own problem and something that's going to get you into trouble in real life. We're after the truth here, not cherrypicking to fit your own agendas and beliefs. If you have an issue with this, then perhaps you shouldn't even be discussing it with people who can actually bring up real data instead of anecdotal junk, which does not count towards proving anything almost ever.

I'm sorry your judgement is so clouded that you miss simple analysis of data and that you somehow think the US Census Department has the same stupid agendas as the FBI or CIA that you can't even trust them. And even if they did have their own agendas (the only "agenda" they have is collecting the most accurate data so they can have accurate government representation and have enough data to know where certain services such as medical care are missing - I know this because I've actually worked personally with people that are high up in the department), this wouldn't be a Chicago thing. The statistics would be skewed in every city, which would still be proportional and mean that Chicago still has just as large of a middle class percentage wise as cities like Houston and Minneapolis.

Did you read my previous post? I just said I should have specified what I consider middle class. Yes, you're right, the decline of the middle class is a nationwide problem, but some areas of the country are doing better than others. I hope the situation will continue to improve. Nowhere did I say the census was wrong or that it has the same agenda as the CIA and the FBI. Talk about a straw man! I just said, the census and the rest of the government should not always be exempt from questioning and skepticism. That doesn't mean that I believe the government is always lying to us. In this case, I'd bet the census stats are correct...but who knows? If I want to, when I have the time, I may further investigate the census, its methods and how it got its data. I'm certainly not going to trust the census or anything else because you say I should. I don't know anything about you. I don't know who you are. Why should I just take your word? You could be lying to me, for all I know. I'll do my own research for myself.

Well, it's obvious you want the last word, so I'm going to try my best to resist the temptation to respond to your next post. I hope I'm successful :-) Happy Thanksgiving.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:01 PM
 
14,800 posts, read 17,568,241 times
Reputation: 9244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Montana View Post
Did you read my previous post? I just said I should have specified what I consider middle class. Yes, you're right, the decline of the middle class is a nationwide problem, but some areas of the country are doing better than others. I hope the situation will continue to improve. Nowhere did I say the census was wrong or that it has the same agenda as the CIA and the FBI. Talk about a straw man! I just said, the census and the rest of the government should not always be exempt from questioning and skepticism. That doesn't mean that I believe the government is always lying to us. In this case, I'd bet the census stats are correct...but who knows? If I want to, when I have the time, I may further investigate the census, its methods and how it got its data. I'm certainly not going to trust the census or anything else because you say I should. I don't know anything about you. I don't know who you are. Why should I just take your word? You could be lying to me, for all I know. I'll do my own research for myself.

Well, it's obvious you want the last word, so I'm going to try my best to resist the temptation to respond to your next post. I hope I'm successful :-) Happy Thanksgiving.
In other words, your worries apply to the country as a whole.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,771,714 times
Reputation: 7419
You have inferred the census is wrong considering you asked me once if I trust the government, and by disregarding the facts and calling the middle class percentage of Chicago "very little" even when the data doesn't support this in the slightest bit. Are you ready to say that Minneapolis has a small middle class too? Percentage wise for every categorization I looked at, it's almost identical to Chicago. It'll be a new one to hear that Minneapolis' middle class is "very little" too.
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: East Central Pennsylvania/ Chicago for 6yrs.
2,535 posts, read 3,257,715 times
Reputation: 1483
Chicago Named 2014 "Top Metro" for New and Expanding Companies Chicago named " Top Metro " for New and Expanding Companies 2014.

Chicagoland | Where we operate | BP U.S. BP's faith and investment in Chicagoland.

The 20 best cities for global finance GFCI index - Business Insider Chicago #9 moving up 3 spots to the Top 10.

Chicago’s real estate market is booming - FT.com

The city saw 217 “major business expansions”, comprising 4.6m square feet of added space, over 21,000 new and retained jobs and $3billion in investment, making it the second-most active central business district office market in the country, according to World Business Chicago, an economic development organization. In 2013.

GaWC Research Bulletin 432

Financial Services, Top 5 Cities
1 New York
2 London
3 Chicago
4 San Francisco
5 Sydney

Banking, Top 5 Cities
1 New York
2 Chicago
3 Boston
4 Washington DC
5 London

Investment Banking, Top 5 Cities
1 New York
2 London
3 San Francisco
4 Chicago
5 Paris

Investment Management, Top 5 Cities
1 New York
2 London
3 San Francisco
4 Chicago
5 Boston

Capital Markets, Top 5 Cities
1 New York
2 London
3 Chicago
4 Mumbai
5 Toronto

The cumulative scores for all 6 categories:
World's Absolute Financial Centres
1 New York 5,789
2 London 3,120
3 San Francisco 2,197
4 Chicago 2,007
5 Boston 1,561
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:39 AM
 
14,800 posts, read 17,568,241 times
Reputation: 9244
Middle-class families, pillar of American Dream, are no longer in majority: study - Chicago Tribune

Good article on the declining middle class. It's a national issue, not at all unique to Chicago.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
7,010 posts, read 11,904,295 times
Reputation: 5813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fighting Fungus View Post
How about cook county suburbs? Are they in as bad shape as Chicago?

Can't they reduce pensions 5-10% and give new hires a 401k plan?
I'm not as certain about the Cook County suburbs, but the Chicago suburbs in DuPage county and Lake County are doing tremendously well. Many people have fled the city or relocated to the Chicagoland area and specifically choose Lake and DuPage counties due to fewer laws and a simpler and easier tax code, heck even the gas tax is cheaper in Lake County. Cook County has seen some pretty anemic growth, even some shrinkage in recent census, but Lake and DuPage are continuing to swell their numbers. DuPage county has almost 1 million people and Lake County is slightly over 750,000 people.

I think what the city will have to do is reduce or eliminate pension plans for future employees, your idea of reducing the pension or giving a 401k are good starters towards the city getting its budget under control. I hope that Chicago is able to figure out its financial woes, it's a wonderful city with great histroy and culture, it's sad to see a city in such disarray.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
7,010 posts, read 11,904,295 times
Reputation: 5813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Sure, Chicago may not be good for your typical middle class family that wants an affordable 3 bed/2 bath house with a 2 car garage, a white picket fence, and top notch schools. I'm not sure that it's ever been that kind of city. That's why there's places like Des Moines, IA and Plano, TX. I think a strong argument could also be made that many, and ever-increasing, Chicago suburbs are pushing out the "middle class" as well, at least using the definition I provided. The insane tax climate for suburban property owners in particular comes to mind.
Bingo.

You can be middle class in Chicago and live decent, but you're not going to live like middle class does in other parts of the country. There's a reason people choose the outlying suburbs or just plain smaller cities in general. My house in Indiana would be worth over double its current value if it was located in Cook County, and probably triple or more if it was located in the New York City area. Life in the big city doesn't come cheap, kind of surprises me more people aren't as interested in the smaller to medium sized cities, still a lot of amenities at a much more affordable cost.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:12 PM
 
Location: broke leftist craphole Illizuela
10,326 posts, read 17,339,629 times
Reputation: 20321
When the time comes to sell the home in Niles in Cook Co I will probably end up moving to Dupage Elmhurst/Lombard/DG. I am sick of the Chicago Crook Co crap especially now that President Pigswindle raised the sales tax back to 10.5%. I am also tired of paying 2.1-2.3% effective property tax for schools that are meh at best.
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