What is going to happen with this pension debt in Illinois? (Chicago: low income, private schools)

[MSchemist80]

Better paid than engineers and programmers? Also don't forget tenure. I had some good teachers who I respected growing up but I had about an equal number of outrageously bad teachers who deserved to be fired and probably couldn't function in the private sector they were so incompetent and had toxic personalities.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by LeotheOrangeCat

That's not an outrageous amount. Teachers should be well paid. But they may be over playing their hand now. The finances are a mess and a willingness to be flexible would win a lot of goodwill from the public.

Considering the actual amount of working days they put in to get these salaries, it's closer to outrageous than fair, given cps finances.

[LeotheOrangeCat]

Engineers and programmers make more than $70,000. If not, they're doing it wrong. Besides the idea should be to offer competitive compensation to lure talented people into the teaching profession.

[emathias]

Originally Posted by LeotheOrangeCat

Engineers and programmers make more than $70,000. If not, they're doing it wrong. Besides the idea should be to offer competitive compensation to lure talented people into the teaching profession.

Junior programmers don't always make that much, and while a senior, mid-career engineer might make closer to double that much, they will also be working 50-60 hour weeks (sometimes more) with no more than 4 weeks of vacation per year most of which will not roll over or accumulate and, at best, a partial 401k match. A mid-career teacher with a masters might make $90k per year, but will have at least a couple months during summers off, and typically have sick days that accumulate to a great degree. I don't know about CPS policy, but in Evanston teachers can accumulate 360 days of sick time, which will be paid out when they leave or retire. Plus the teachers get a pension which is typically worth far in excess of what the typical software professional would ever accumulate from 401k matches. And that's not even considering tenure, which is something almost no software engineer has anything to compare to.

[chet everett]

Having done both work as a teacher and in IT I gotta say it is like trying to compare making a living piloting a tuna boat vs making a living working under Gordon Ramsey -- both are stressful but in very different ways. The tuna boat guys might take home every bit as much as a somebody running a kitchen in NYC, Chicago or London, but the sorts of things that will haunt you getting up for work are miles apart.

The compensation thing is also very very weird. If you play around with any sort of standard "mortgage affordability" calculator it is easy to see why many younger people feel pretty hopeless about getting a house in a nice part of Chicago or, for teachers not working for CPS, a decent suburb. https://smartasset.com/mortgage/how-...ord#HQlkPyk6Ya The challenge for teachers is bit harder too, as they really never have any opportunity for any kind of bonus -- even fairly stingy firms will often have small monetary awards to help morale / retain people after a challening period, schools breed negative feeling about finances from the headlines that leave no doubt about the fiscal calamity. When it comes to the dollars & sense of a downpayment folks in the private sector can at least consider their 401k as potential source of funds...

I completely agree that pensions for public employees are totally unlike anything that public sector has, but it also is something that, even firms could have afforded to fund them, really encourages a host of behaviors that are not desirable for any well run workplace. Workers lose sight of the value of PRESENT innovation, REAL TIME fixes for current problems, and IMPROVING their own skills. Pensions discourage worker mobility, reward the "hangers on", and result in an aged workforce. The archaic thinking of Unions that get workers to buy into a pension driven mindset foster dependency and uniformity. Firms that put workers in charge of their own future with 401ks encourage independence, an appropriate orientation toward current earnings securing future retirement, and a much more diverse workplace.

There are all kinds of ways that government workers and the communities they serve could benefit from rethinking the details of their compensation / benefits but the POWER that politicians and the insiders that get HUGE income from the consulting and false oversight of sensitive funds will need to be separated. There is a culture that rewards guys too stupid to figure their way out of a paper bag who make pals at the intersection of public bodies and finance -- Former Illinois Treasurer Alexi Giannoulias buys $2.6 million mansion - Chicago Tribune

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Having done both work as a teacher and in IT I gotta say it is like trying to compare making a living piloting a tuna boat vs making a living working under Gordon Ramsey -- both are stressful but in very different ways. The tuna boat guys might take home every bit as much as a somebody running a kitchen in NYC, Chicago or London, but the sorts of things that will haunt you getting up for work are miles apart.

The compensation thing is also very very weird. If you play around with any sort of standard "mortgage affordability" calculator it is easy to see why many younger people feel pretty hopeless about getting a house in a nice part of Chicago or, for teachers not working for CPS, a decent suburb. https://smartasset.com/mortgage/how-...ord#HQlkPyk6Ya The challenge for teachers is bit harder too, as they really never have any opportunity for any kind of bonus -- even fairly stingy firms will often have small monetary awards to help morale / retain people after a challening period, schools breed negative feeling about finances from the headlines that leave no doubt about the fiscal calamity. When it comes to the dollars & sense of a downpayment folks in the private sector can at least consider their 401k as potential source of funds...

The cost of housing in prime N Side Chicago is really separate from teacher compensation. But a two teacher household could easily afford many safe, 'nice', Chicago neighborhoods, though not the Lincoln Park/Wicker Parks of the city.

And while yes, teachers may miss out on annual bonuses those in private sector at a similar salary often make, there's the whole 4 non working months per year 'bonus'. That they apparently also think they are entitled to 'no layoff' guarantees plus annual raises that have outpaced inflation for most of the last 10 years, when CPS is insolvent...get real.

The teachers union isn't the sole reason CPS finances are a complete mess, but when the inevitable layoffs come, they should take a hard look at themselves first.

[nana053]

Originally Posted by jdiddy

The cost of housing in prime N Side Chicago is really separate from teacher compensation. But a two teacher household could easily afford many safe, 'nice', Chicago neighborhoods, though not the Lincoln Park/Wicker Parks of the city.

And while yes, teachers may miss out on annual bonuses those in private sector at a similar salary often make, there's the whole 4 non working months per year 'bonus'. That they apparently also think they are entitled to 'no layoff' guarantees plus annual raises that have outpaced inflation for most of the last 10 years, when CPS is insolvent...get real.

The teachers union isn't the sole reason CPS finances are a complete mess, but when the inevitable layoffs come, they should take a hard look at themselves first.

The bolded is sooooo wrong. Teachers do not have 4 months off. They start in late August and go to the middle of June (without snow days). Teachers are in school longer than the students. Classes next year begin on Sept 6, but teachers report on August 24th. Students finish on June 20th. Teachers are in school until June 22nd. They get 9 weeks off for the summer and 2 weeks off for Winter Break. Then they have 1 week off for spring break. The total then is 12 weeks off or 3 months, not 4 months and most teachers do work on breaks (grading, planning and other critical tasks are often done when teachers are on break). Also note that there are some schools where, imo, teachers deserve combat pay.

[FAReastcoast]

Is there an example of a State or City Agency/Department that is not a financial mess or not run by complete morons? I can't think of any.

[MSchemist80]

Not in this state at least.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by FAReastcoast

Is there an example of a State or City Agency/Department that is not a financial mess or not run by complete morons? I can't think of any.

The relative "soundness" of the Illinois Toll Authority is highest of any State Agency -- Bond Issues - www.illinoistollway.com

The Bond Underwriters have been pleased that the Toll Authority mostly is staffed with actual financial professionals that use standard accounting methods to report the current income and planned expenditures. There is a rather twisted history of the Toll Authority fighting off attempts of political types to keep the system functioning. Blago had zero understanding of the system and at one time wanted to sell the HQ and maybe the whole system, but fortunately actual bankers told him to get lost...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illino...hway_Authority

A Brief History of Illinois Corruption - TIME