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As others have stated, Evanston is not the city, but I'll move forward from that...
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the effects of your paranoid personality on your children rather than the outcomes of city living, but that's just me. Anyways, I'm a white guy who grew up (I'm now mid-20s) on the Southside near Midway, I was raised by two blue-collar old-school parents who grew up on the Southside, and I went to public k-12, albeit magnet schools for most of that time. I absolutely loved living and being raised in the city, and as a whole it made me a much better more well-rounded, self sufficient person as an adult.
I loved the freedom that I had growing up and riding my bike to different parks on the Southside to meet new kids and play pickup sports, and as early as 7th grade I had no problem taking the CTA all around the city (I didn't even get a car for myself until I was in college). Yes, as a city kid and living in the neighborhoods I did, I got into a few fights every now and then. Yes, I did some stupid **** at times. And yes, growing up I knew some people who were into some criminal activities, but all of this gave me a much better perspective on the world and a whole lot of street smarts that you're not gonna get watching a documentary in your pajamas. In the end, I wound up going to a top 10 US News university, I'm doing extremely well, and many many issues that my millennial peers have hard times with never seem to affect me.
All said, I truly believe that city living and more hands-off parenting produces the most well-rounded, mentally capable children, but hey, that might be my cognitive bias speaking. If your kids are destined for trouble then they're going to find it living in the city or not, and same goes if they're headed for success.
I appreciate the answer that EF has offered but I get the sense OP does not have kids that are ready to enroll in high school any time soon and it might be helpful to understand just how challenging admissions to top tier colleges has become --
1. Princeton University (NJ)
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. Yale University (CT)
4(tie). Columbia University (NY)
4(tie). Stanford University (CA)
4(tie). University of Chicago (IL)
7. Massachusetts Institute of Technology
8. Duke University (NC)
9. University of Pennsylvania
10(tie). California Institute of Technology
10(tie). Johns Hopkins University (MD)
... the University of Pennsylvania announced that the class of 2018 was the most competitive class yet, as UPenn’s admit rate had dropped below 10 percent for the first time in its history.
And a day later, Harvard said that it had accepted 5.9 percent—2,023 of 34,295—of the students applying for the incoming class of 2018.... The problem, according to the report, is that there is a “silent achievement gap” as low-income and minority students are much less likely than their higher-income and white peers to earn the same credentials.“Over the last 20 years, the admissions rates for some schools have been halved or quartered...
My point is that for families that in the past may have been able to give their kids enough support working at "blue collar" workplaces that still allowed for enough parental involvement to give kids the right motivations to make it into a good school the shifts in the achievement at the majority of schools serving low income populations have significantly altered the outlook for such students and for this reason it would be most beneficial for such families to consider the implications that come along with inferior local schools. As the OP is inquiring specifically about Evanston it perhaps makes sense to consider how that school compares to others -- Evanston Twp High School in Evanston, IL | Best High Schools | US News -- a mostly reassuring GOLD ranking that places it among other excellent suburban high schools and selective CPS options, here is some relevant comparison info:
#11 Prospect High School
66% Tested (AP®)
59% Passed (AP®)
#12 John Hersey High School
63% Tested (AP®)
56% Passed (AP®)
#13 Evanston Twp High School
74% Tested (AP®)
52% Passed (AP®)
#14 Lincoln Park High School
74% Tested (AP®)
52% Passed (AP®)
#15 Glenbrook South High School
60% Tested (AP®)
55% Passed (AP®)
My point is that for families that in the past may have been able to give their kids enough support working at "blue collar" workplaces that still allowed for enough parental involvement to give kids the right motivations to make it into a good school the shifts in the achievement at the majority of schools serving low income populations have significantly altered the outlook for such students and for this reason it would be most beneficial for such families to consider the implications that come along with inferior local schools. As the OP is inquiring specifically about Evanston it perhaps makes sense to consider how that school compares to others -- Evanston Twp High School in Evanston, IL | Best High Schools | US News -- a mostly reassuring GOLD ranking that places it among other excellent suburban high schools and selective CPS options, here is some relevant comparison info:
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, and I absolutely know how crazy college admissions have gotten, but I tend to look at children as a lot more nature than people wish to believe (with backing from a lot of recent genetics research). My point being that a kid is not getting into let's say a top 20 university unless 1) they have some type of "in", be it athletics, legacy, etc. and/or 2) they're really smart AND accomplished while in high school.
In this respect I think the high school is not going to be the determining factor (assuming it's not an extremely poor high school, I agree on that), but rather the student is going to be. As I've stated before, I went to Young and I think it did a fantastic job of preparing me for college, but if I went to my local high school, Curie, I likely would have finished top 5 in the class if not at the top and ended up at a good university regardless. I also believe that college is extremely overhyped for many many kids, my brother being a shining example, but that's for a different thread.
With that said, I completely understand why parents would want their kids in "better" schools, but even a school like New Trier is not going to get a middling intelligence, middling motivation kid into a top 20 university without an "in". Then, when it comes to social aspects and mental preparedness as an adult, I truly believe a real city experience will beat a more sheltered, more suburban experience 10 times out of 10. But this is simply my own empirical viewpoint being around many millennials with a multitude of issues.
Edit: To not derail, OP, live where YOU actually want to live. If that the suburbs, then great. If it's the city then great as well. Raising your kids in the city, if that's where you want to live, is not remotely going to be the determining factor in your kids achieving professional success or not, and IMO, it may end up making them more well-rounded adults.
Last edited by EffortPoaster; 04-19-2016 at 12:02 PM..
I agree with part of your argument but the broader trend is hard to ignore...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EffortPoaster
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, and I absolutely know how crazy college admissions have gotten, but I tend to look at children as a lot more nature than people wish to believe (with backing from a lot of recent genetics research). My point being that a kid is not getting into let's say a top 20 university unless 1) they have some type of "in", be it athletics, legacy, etc. and/or 2) they're really smart AND accomplished while in high school.
In this respect I think the high school is not going to be the determining factor (assuming it's not an extremely poor high school, I agree on that), but rather the student is going to be. As I've stated before, I went to Young and I think it did a fantastic job of preparing me for college, but if I went to my local high school, Curie, I likely would have finished top 5 in the class if not at the top and ended up at a good university regardless. I also believe that college is extremely overhyped for many many kids, my brother being a shining example, but that's for a different thread.
With that said, I completely understand why parents would want their kids in "better" schools, but even a school like New Trier is not going to get a middling intelligence, middling motivation kid into a top 20 university without an "in". Then, when it comes to social aspects and mental preparedness as an adult, I truly believe a real city experience will beat a more sheltered, more suburban experience 10 times out of 10. But this is simply my own empirical viewpoint being around many millennials with a multitude of issues.
Completely agree that students applying to the most competitive schools are increasingly facing bleak odds unless they more than "great" and have to be "exceptional".
Nothing "magic" is going to put kids that are not properly prepared in the catbird seat for admissions to good colleges, and I agree that part of that preparation has to be parents that foster a sense of independence /personal responsibility. As a matter of personal experience, I doubt that any one factor, including choosing a high school ranked just a place or two higher waves a wand that transforms a kids from UofI to UofC material BUT I do not discount the potential of one teacher 'clicking' with one kid that has a halo effect on their overall path toward a much more distinguished high school record and similarly disappointing results borne out by the lack of such of 'life changing' teachers at too many CPS schools...
To your argument: clearly being "sheltered" is not going to be helpful. I might even agree that for students that are capable of excelling in an environment that is otherwise desolate there is the potential for such things to serve as a kind of boost for exceptional students but there is just no evidence that harsh environments really "forge" better students except in Hollywood big-screen make-believe... {see also "Waiting For Superman" for negatives effects of such false thinking http://www.thenation.com/article/grading-waiting-superman/}
Where I would object even more strongly is the false binary choice of either singularly "sheltered" or romantically "urban" settings -- I personally know many adults that as kids grew up in places like Wilmette or Hinsdale that were every bit as adept at ducking out of school and heading to Wrigley Field or a Sox game as kids from Whitney Young or Payton, and given the generally "understanding" mindset of administrators at New Trier or Hinsdale Central such minor episodes of rule bending would likely be treated less harshly than it might be now in CPS. While one might assume that every would be "Ferris Bueller" has to subvert the dastardly rules of "Mr. Rooney" in suburban schools, more enlightened administrators that value some creative rule bending are actually rather common in most suburban settings in our region, where cooperation between parents, faculty and staff reject more draconian "zero tolerance" mindsets common in other areas. Other aspects of living in areas that are designed primarily to encourage children to live up to their potential vs dealing with the harsher aspects of violent crime that are sadly common for those in urban settings are quite well studied and shows massive disadvantages for the populations facing those negatives -- How do Urban African American Youth Respond to Life Event Stress? – Chicago Policy Review big contrasts with supportive environment The Positive Relationship Between Family Involvement and Student Success|Pta.org
I even agree, in a theoretical sense, that college being the only aim of high school is a poor goal. That said, the alternative paths, as perhaps advocated by even Silicon Valley dreamers, Peter Thiel drop out grant: Encouraging students to "stop out" of college. is even more heavily dependent on a fully supportive family that emathias alludes to than the path through college. The desolation of failing urban schools, violence of neglected neighborhoods and sad economic prospects of parents working dead-end jobs stand in sharp contrast to the much different history of kids that have dropped out of college and gone onto success...
I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, and I absolutely know how crazy college admissions have gotten, but I tend to look at children as a lot more nature than people wish to believe (with backing from a lot of recent genetics research). My point being that a kid is not getting into let's say a top 20 university unless 1) they have some type of "in", be it athletics, legacy, etc. and/or 2) they're really smart AND accomplished while in high school.
In this respect I think the high school is not going to be the determining factor (assuming it's not an extremely poor high school, I agree on that), but rather the student is going to be. As I've stated before, I went to Young and I think it did a fantastic job of preparing me for college, but if I went to my local high school, Curie, I likely would have finished top 5 in the class if not at the top and ended up at a good university regardless. I also believe that college is extremely overhyped for many many kids, my brother being a shining example, but that's for a different thread.
With that said, I completely understand why parents would want their kids in "better" schools, but even a school like New Trier is not going to get a middling intelligence, middling motivation kid into a top 20 university without an "in". Then, when it comes to social aspects and mental preparedness as an adult, I truly believe a real city experience will beat a more sheltered, more suburban experience 10 times out of 10. But this is simply my own empirical viewpoint being around many millennials with a multitude of issues.
Edit: To not derail, OP, live where YOU actually want to live. If that the suburbs, then great. If it's the city then great as well. Raising your kids in the city, if that's where you want to live, is not remotely going to be the determining factor in your kids achieving professional success or not, and IMO, it may end up making them more well-rounded adults.
One of the better posts I've read on this forum in a while. Generally upbeat, and beholden to any particular view. Sometimes college is over-hyped, especially for those who really aren't all that interested in the first place. It's also very possible to "succeed" if you attend some college other than America's best schools. Not everyone can attend Harvard, regardless of the chance to go for free if your income is low enough..
My wife grew up in the city, in Bucktown of all places. She says the main thing suburban and people from Wisconsin get wrong is they think the city is going to be too crazy for a teen. In reality Chicago life is boring for a teenager. All the stuff that 25 year olds think is cool about Chicago like bars and clubs... 15 year olds can't do any of that stuff anyway. Everything costs money and for the most part teenagers don't have any. She claims to have spent almost all of her free time reading books in her bedroom.
I think more Chicago kids end up kind of like neurotic shut ins rather than ending up like characters from Shameless. Even for low income, minority kids. I watched a documentary about some rapper kids from Englewood and they spent 90% of their time in their house. They didn't even know how to take the El or that the Bean even existed.
Last edited by King Harold; 04-20-2016 at 01:04 PM..
My wife grew up in the city, in Bucktown of all places. She says the main thing suburban and people from Wisconsin get wrong is they think the city is going to be too crazy for a teen. In reality Chicago life is boring for a teenager. All the stuff that 25 year olds think is cool about Chicago like bars and clubs... 15 year olds can't do any of that stuff anyway. Everything costs money and for the most part teenagers don't have any. She claims to have spent almost all of her free time reading books in her bedroom.
I think more Chicago kids end up kind of like neurotic shut ins rather than ending up like characters from Shameless. Even for low income, minority kids. I watched a documentary about some rapper kids from Englewood and they spent 90% of their time in their house. They didn't even know how to take the El or that the Bean even existed.
When I taught in CPS I was fortunate to have a fairly sizeable number of kids that might be classified as "neurotic shut ins" that generally set the curve on the most demanding tests and quizzes. Kinda consider that a good thing.
I also can state, from both experience in some moderate income suburban areas as well as feedback from people involved in public health education, that kids that developed their sense of what is "normal" from make-believe music-industry millionaire "pimps", messed up daytime TV shows and even more out of whack Hollywood writers' distorted images ended up making "Shameless" look tame -- https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0225090123.htm & https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0912085330.htm
My wife grew up in the city, in Bucktown of all places. She says the main thing suburban and people from Wisconsin get wrong is they think the city is going to be too crazy for a teen. In reality Chicago life is boring for a teenager. All the stuff that 25 year olds think is cool about Chicago like bars and clubs... 15 year olds can't do any of that stuff anyway. Everything costs money and for the most part teenagers don't have any. She claims to have spent almost all of her free time reading books in her bedroom.
I think more Chicago kids end up kind of like neurotic shut ins rather than ending up like characters from Shameless. Even for low income, minority kids. I watched a documentary about some rapper kids from Englewood and they spent 90% of their time in their house. They didn't even know how to take the El or that the Bean even existed.
Looking back on life growing up in the suburbs, it was pretty sweet to have lots of parkland and large yards to play in as a child, friends with big basements, big TVs, and big video game collections as a kid, and a bunch of friends that owned cars as a teenager that could caravan to the multiplex together. It's also easier for a teenager in the suburbs to get a part-time job which is an underrated part of growing up. I sometimes had illusions of "city kids" as being hip scene kids but I think King Harold is right.
My wife grew up in the city, in Bucktown of all places. She says the main thing suburban and people from Wisconsin get wrong is they think the city is going to be too crazy for a teen. In reality Chicago life is boring for a teenager. All the stuff that 25 year olds think is cool about Chicago like bars and clubs... 15 year olds can't do any of that stuff anyway. Everything costs money and for the most part teenagers don't have any. She claims to have spent almost all of her free time reading books in her bedroom.
I think more Chicago kids end up kind of like neurotic shut ins rather than ending up like characters from Shameless. Even for low income, minority kids. I watched a documentary about some rapper kids from Englewood and they spent 90% of their time in their house. They didn't even know how to take the El or that the Bean even existed.
I didn't grow up in Chicago, but I grew up in NYC (Washington Heights, Manhattan), and my experience growing up was a 180 from what you describe.
I was riding on the subway literally all throughout the city, meeting friends in Washington Square Park to Skate Board, Up to Arthur Ave in the Bronx to stop by my Father's market for a slice of Pizza, or playing basketball at any of the number of courts.
Then again, I guess Bucktown isn't really like Manhattan, so maybe my experience was unique.
My wife grew up in the city, in Bucktown of all places. She says the main thing suburban and people from Wisconsin get wrong is they think the city is going to be too crazy for a teen. In reality Chicago life is boring for a teenager. All the stuff that 25 year olds think is cool about Chicago like bars and clubs... 15 year olds can't do any of that stuff anyway. Everything costs money and for the most part teenagers don't have any. She claims to have spent almost all of her free time reading books in her bedroom.
I think more Chicago kids end up kind of like neurotic shut ins rather than ending up like characters from Shameless. Even for low income, minority kids. I watched a documentary about some rapper kids from Englewood and they spent 90% of their time in their house. They didn't even know how to take the El or that the Bean even existed.
My guess for her lack of friends during high school is she lived in a White neighborhood where there were no teenagers, went to the public schools where there were a lot more Hispanic and Black people.
So probably no real classmates nearby.
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Anyways, besides what he said, I'm sure some of you have been to the HIP mall of Irving Park and Harlem, and in the after school hours the place can be packed with high schoolers, and I swear that's like the only place I can see White high schoolers in the Chicago area other than the White suburbs (though the mall is technically in a suburb, but surrounded by Chicago on all sides).
I didn't grow up in Chicago, but I grew up in NYC (Washington Heights, Manhattan), and my experience growing up was a 180 from what you describe.
I was riding on the subway literally all throughout the city, meeting friends in Washington Square Park to Skate Board, Up to Arthur Ave in the Bronx to stop by my Father's market for a slice of Pizza, or playing basketball at any of the number of courts.
Then again, I guess Bucktown isn't really like Manhattan, so maybe my experience was unique.
I grew up in Sydney, which doesn't have a patch on Chicago as far as transit and city amenities go, and my experience was much closer to yours.
I can't help but think that kids growing up in the North Side will have a similar experience, too. It probably won't match a Manhattan childhood, but then nothing would.
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I agree with part of your argument but the broader trend is hard to ignore...
