Chicago - The Most Bike Friendly City In The U.S. (Rome: 2015, construction)

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

As for lights: a good many of them are demand actuated meaning they will not cycle to green if only a cyclist or even a group of cyclists are there. As a result, even the law now allows them to proceed cautiously through.

As for stop signs: We treat them as yeilds. We ride on residential and secondary streets for long distances sometimes 100+ miles. We simply are not going to stop, shift gears, unclip from the pedals, loose all momentum then start again clip back in regain momentum shift back... every single block. You wouldn't drive on such a route. However, if you prefer we could start riding on the main arterial highways, take an entire lane and snarl traffic for you. But at least we'll be obeying the law.

Why can't you use turn signals, or drive at or under the speed limit?

It is NOT LEGAL to "proceed cautiously through red lights" --

On page 4 of the Illinois Rules of the Road For Bicycles it states one must wait TWO FULL MINUTES before driving through a red light that would fail to turn green:
https://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/p...s/dsd_a143.pdf

A bicyclist may proceed, after yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic,
through a red light that fails to turn green after waiting for at least 120 seconds in
eligible communities.

Similarly, while I understand the argument that a bicycle is more stable and maneuverable when in motion, Illinois law DOES NOT ALLOW the big red octagonal signs to be "treated as yield" --

Page 5

Come to a
complete stop.

As this story tragically highlights the results of even careful cyclists interacting with trucks and cars is often death -- New Bike Law Gives Cyclists the Right of Way in Illinois | Chicago Tonight | WTTW

[xsboost]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

We simply are not going to stop, shift gears, unclip from the pedals, loose all momentum then start again clip back in regain momentum shift back... every single block.

So you get to pick an choose which laws to obey only when they're convenient for you?

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

Why can't you use turn signals, or drive at or under the speed limit?

Wow, you admit you're breaking the law and then proceed to blame me specifically? FYI, I've had one moving violation in over 20 years of driving. I'd welcome the police to follow me. I guarantee they'll get bored and move on.

Just to be clear, I have no problems with bicycles on the road. Just follow the rules of the road, just like cars have to. Those drivers breaking laws? Yes, they **** me off to. But this thread was about bicycles, not cars.

Originally Posted by chet everett

As this story tragically highlights the results of even careful cyclists interacting with trucks and cars is often death -- New Bike Law Gives Cyclists the Right of Way in Illinois | Chicago Tonight | WTTW

I remember arguing with my dad about right of way once (we were walking) and he told me something I'll never forget. Right or wrong, when it's person vs car, the person will always lose. You can't rely on what the other person is supposed to do, so always be careful.

A bicyclist will always be at a disadvantage; they're not surrounded by tons of metal.

[MSchemist80]

Originally Posted by xsboost

So you get to pick an choose which laws to obey only when they're convenient for you?



Wow, you admit you're breaking the law and then proceed to blame me specifically? FYI, I've had one moving violation in over 20 years of driving. I'd welcome the police to follow me. I guarantee they'll get bored and move on.

Just to be clear, I have no problems with bicycles on the road. Just follow the rules of the road, just like cars have to.

I don't think I've ever in my life encountered a motorist that obeyed the speed limits and yes that includes myself. The most conservative drivers drive 5-10 mph over it. Spend any time on the tollway and most folks are easily doing 15+ the median speed on 294 is ~70mph.

So all this complaining by drivers about cyclists not following the rules of the road is laughable hypocricy. Drivers are going to do what seems reasonable to them whatever the laws are and so are cyclists.

Though is it really that inconvenient to use turn signals? It would prevent many accidents and I'd estimate less than 50% do at all and a lot of the rest turn them on when they are halfway through the turn.

[MSchemist80]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Similarly, while I understand the argument that a bicycle is more stable and maneuverable when in motion, Illinois law DOES NOT ALLOW the big red octagonal signs to be "treated as yield" --
]

It doesn't allow for drivers to drive 5 to 10 mph over the speed limit either but that is what people do because the speed limits in many places are unreasonably low.

The same with stop signs. It is simply unreasonable to expect a cyclist on a long route through residential and secondary streets to come to a complete stop at every stop sign. When I commuted in college to downtown I counted one morning and there were 28 stop signs and 43 stop lights on my 22 mile route. You can harass us all you like it just isn't going to happen. I suspect every none of the complainers have ever tried riding a bike for more than 5 miles on a bike path.

[ForYourLungsOnly]

More bike lanes needed. More PROTECTED bike lanes needed. Glad to hear this ranking. To all of the whining motorists, you drive in a city that has some of the most aggressive, horn blaring, texting, speeding up to 55 on a residential street so you can get to a stop sign to drift through, moron drivers I've ever seen. And I've lived a lot of places. Of course bikes need to be more law abiding...so do drivers of 3,100 lb metal machines. Lets keep the progress rolling and ignore the detractors. If it was up to them, cities would be full of giant asphalt surface parking lots, wide treeless freeways and no sidewalks.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

It doesn't allow for drivers to drive 5 to 10 mph over the speed limit either but that is what people do because the speed limits in many places are unreasonably low.

The same with stop signs. It is simply unreasonable to expect a cyclist on a long route through residential and secondary streets to come to a complete stop at every stop sign. When I commuted in college to downtown I counted one morning and there were 28 stop signs and 43 stop lights on my 22 mile route. You can harass us all you like it just isn't going to happen. I suspect every none of the complainers have ever tried riding a bike for more than 5 miles on a bike path.

I ride my bike quite a bit. The point is not that "everybody bends some rules". The fact is you misrepresented current Illinois law. On the very day that additional legal protection for bicyclists were signed two people were killed on bicycles in Chicago. Laws don't do anything when steel trucks & cars run over flesh & bone. Blow through a red light or stop sign get struck and the cop writes YOU a ticket if you're not dead...

[xsboost]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

So all this complaining by drivers about cyclists not following the rules of the road is laughable hypocricy. Drivers are going to do what seems reasonable to them whatever the laws are and so are cyclists.

That's your argument? They break the law so it's ok for me to as well? People steal and kill everyday, so I guess I can too?

Originally Posted by ForYourLungsOnly

Of course bikes need to be more law abiding

And that's all I'm asking for. If you're going to ride on the road like a car, then obey the laws like cars have to. I will stop complaining the day I see a cyclist pulled over for breaking the law. It just doesn't happen.

[ForYourLungsOnly]

Originally Posted by xsboost

That's your argument? They break the law so it's ok for me to as well? People steal and kill everyday, so I guess I can too?



And that's all I'm asking for. If you're going to ride on the road like a car, then obey the laws like cars have to. I will stop complaining the day I see a cyclist pulled over for breaking the law. It just doesn't happen.

Yet the problem with detractors who are against bike infrastructure is that you are PREVENTING bikes from being better integrated into the roadways. Protected bike lanes, bike traffic lights (yes they operate differently from car traffic lights. Some exist in the loop and river north), and education for both bikers and drivers needs to be a top priority to progress as a city with viable infrastructure. This isn't the white flight era of the mid 20th century where cars were promised to be some gift from God to alleviate all of our travel woes. Modern cities need to focus on multimodal transport with strong transit systems, bike infrastructure and safe roadways that make driving safer for the drivers themselves, pedestrians and cyclists who share the road.

[MSchemist80]

Originally Posted by xsboost

That's your argument? They break the law so it's ok for me to as well?

There is no way that you don't break the law routinely while driving or really just living your life. For centuries we have had scores of elected lawmakers many of them lawyers passing laws covering everything from driving to adultery to food storage to lawn care.

I also seriously doubt your contention that you always follow the rules of the road especially driving at or under the speed limit. My argument is that if drivers can take some liberties with the rules of the road such as driving more than the speed limit than so can bikes in the form of treating stop signs as yields or as I said the other option is to have cyclists start cycling on the main arterial roadways designed for thru traffic and they can clog up traffic there. Your call. Do you want cyclists routinely riding east/west on 38 and 64 or north/south on 41 or 59 and taking a full lane?

The simple fact is many of the rules of the road that are reasonable and designed for cars are not so for bikes. Most cars only spend a mile or two on residential streets and stopping is not big deal for them. They take a foot off the gas put it on the brakes and then put it back on the gas. For a cyclist spending 100 miles on residential streets that is not so. I already described the effort it takes for a cyclist to come to a complete stop at a stop sign and on a 100 miles we can easily be talking about several hundred stop signs.

[xsboost]

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

My argument is that if drivers can take some liberties with the rules of the road such as driving more than the speed limit than so can bikes in the form of treating stop signs as yields

That's the same argument a five year old would make: "But Timmy's doing it, so why can't I?"

Originally Posted by MSchemist80

The simple fact is many of the rules of the road that are reasonable and designed for cars are not so for bikes. Most cars only spend a mile or two on residential streets and stopping is not big deal for them. They take a foot off the gas put it on the brakes and then put it back on the gas. For a cyclist spending 100 miles on residential streets that is not so. I already described the effort it takes for a cyclist to come to a complete stop at a stop sign and on a 100 miles we can easily be talking about several hundred stop signs.

Sounds like the suburbs is for you then. <- Yes, I realize you're not the one who said that to me, but now you know how I felt when I read it.