Question about Uptown

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

It was tough for the people of Englewood and Austin to adjust to the demographic changes there in the mid 20th century as well. People complained when all of the middle class residents left the city, and now they're complaining when they return. The truth is that the city needs more middle and upper class residents to achieve a sustainable economic balance. In the 80s it seemed like most urban areas were certain to die a terrible death, and we have only started to reverse this. Cities cannot survive if they are only inhabited by the poor and destitute.

It also makes me mad when people imply that one group of people is somehow more "authentic" than another. Where does this come from? I understand that our world is often so phony and sterile that people are searching for something "real", but it gets ridiculous when people apply these values to groups of people. And why do we somehow decide that we should "freeze" a neighborhood with a certain ethnic makeup? The ethnic demographics of Chicago neighborhoods are in a state of constant change, and have been since the inception of this city. Sure, there have been long periods where a certain ethic group has dominated a neighborhood for decades, but this was often due to economic immobility or discrimination keeping people trapped "in their place". It's a slippery slope when we start to assume that a neighborhood belongs to one group over another, and this is the same argument used to keep blacks and hispanics out of certain neighborhoods before the civil rights movement.

Sure, go ahead and hate corporate chains and the sterilization of neighborhood business districts. I certainly love a nice walkable strip of independent businesses as much as the next urbanite. But often times chains are just a symptom of the larger economy we live in. And many of the independent businesses would have gone out of business anyway without the chains moving in, leaving empty storefronts.

Much of Lake View,North Center, and Roscoe Village were middle class with a smaller mix of lower class before the invasion. Those areas are now mostly upper middle class and upper class now.Those areas were doing fine before the speculators and flippers came in. You just do not know because you did not experience them in the 80's and 90's.

I am not talking about race as the main problem with what has happened, I am talking about money.

I appreciate your diagnosis and hypothesis on Chicago neighborhoods, but the attitude you displayed in this post is what makes people hate transplants.

I bet all the newer (last 10-20 years) residents in LP, Lake View, North Center etc sure think their areas are theirs now and cannot be taken away. They want to keep certain people out. How is that any different for the previous residents?

You did not address my comment directly about what a guy I know said ten years ago.

If you can not see that you have contradicted yourself with your above statements, I do not know what to tell you.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

Much of Lake View,North Center, and Roscoe Village were middle class before the invasion. Those areas were doing fine before the speculators and flippers came in.

It's a pecking order. As demand increases, people are forced further and further out based on neighborhood desirabilty and proximity to the Loop. Lincoln Park filled up, the prices went up, and the not-quite-as-rich-as-the-new-Lincoln-Park people moved to Lakeview. This forced the middle class further out, and it goes down the line. Uptown was skipped over for Edgewater and Ravenswood because of its problems, but Buena Park flipped first starting at the Lakefront and the Sheridan Red Line stop and moving North and West. Now the near South and near West Sides are flipping. It will be truly fascinating to see where we end up in 20 years.

As an architect I am certainly living on a middle-class salary, though the dual-income thing with my wife certainly helps out. Most of my co-workers are decidedly middle class, and as they get older and have families they are now moving to neighborhoods like Albany Park, Irving Park, Portage Park, and Jefferson Park. I think the big change in the next decades will be in these neighborhoods, primarily because they are somewhat safe already and have good "L" access. Sure, there are Latino gangs in all of these neighborhoods (particularly in Albany Park), but they are quite safe when you compare them to areas of the South and West Sides that are gentrifying. And people with families are attracted to the single-family urban homes.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

Much of Lake View,North Center, and Roscoe Village were middle class with a smaller mix of lower class before the invasion. Those areas are now mostly upper middle class and upper class now.Those areas were doing fine before the speculators and flippers came in. You just do not know because you did not experience them in the 80's and 90's.

Uh, how old do you think I am? I'm not some spring chicken who just moved to the city. I spent a LOT of time in Lakeview in the 90s and I've seen the before and after. Your tone is patronizing, youngster!

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

If you can not see that you have contradicted yourself with your above statements, I do not know what to tell you.

It's called having a complex nuanced position on gentrification. There is no clear right and wrong answer on this issue. The phenomenon has a lot of grey area to be sure. But I'm saying that the larger economic trend of interest in urban neighborhoods by the middle and upper classes results in a net benefit overall.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

I bet all the newer (last 10-20 years) residents in LP, Lake View, North Center etc sure think their areas are theirs now and cannot be taken away. They want to keep certain people out. How is that any different for the previous residents?

Good point. Urban life is a constant struggle for terriorty, isn't it? People with money always win this battle, however. Owning property is the best thing you can do to control your destiny.

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

Uh, how old do you think I am? I'm not some spring chicken who just moved to the city. I spent a LOT of time in Lakeview in the 90s and I've seen the before and after. Your tone is patronizing, youngster!

How old do you think I am ? lol

[Drover]

Let's just agree that you're both older than most of the dirt and all of the trees in this city.

[Humboldt1]

Any guesses on who is older?

I am guessing Avengerfire is 45 and Lookout Kid is 40. I am 30.

[aragx6]

Well I know how old Avengerfire is, but I won't tell

[Lookout Kid]

I'm 87, which means I was born in... uh, 1921. Yeah, 1921.