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Yea, this is pretty much it. Chicago and Philadelphia, and to a lesser degree though it's even less costly, Baltimore, are pretty much where urbanity and value intersect. They all have their different good points, but Chicago is definitely a much large and in many ways more cosmopolitan city than Philadelphia (and even more so Baltimore).
It's not even really much of a compromise--Chicago has a greater expanse of walkable urban neighborhoods than Boston, San Francisco, or DC. Against SF especially, there's a massive difference as the urbanity doesn't just drop off into the water, but tapers down so it's a far greater expanse of urbanity overall.
I think if you're this passionate about it where it's been a dream of yours for a while, then take another visit and really scout out the neighborhoods you think you might be interested in. Even in the short time that's elapsed since you last visited, there have been a bevy of developments that have occurred in the city, plus you'd now be visiting during spring or summer where the city is even more bustling. Perhaps look for like-minded people when you visit as there are several organizations within Chicago that are interested in the same things you are.
Maybe I should take another visit, but this time in the summer. I know Chicago is unbelievable in the summer, what with the festivals and events pretty much everywhere across the city. A number of personal events are coalescing that would open me up to visiting this summer for an extended period, or perhaps even moving there.
Definitely agree on the organizations. I've already looked into a few. I've also looked into philanthropic organizations I'd like to support over time. The plethora of options (in both categories) is encouraging, as they're options we largely lack down here. I've spent the last seven years or so of my life saving and investing, concentrating on becoming flexible and free in life. But at some point, you start to care more about your surroundings, and you want to be a bigger part of a community. Chicago - especially Chicago, with its issues - provides an opportunity to grow together. So I like that. But I do have to consider substantial drawbacks to living there that don't exist here. Always trade-offs in life.
I view Chicago in exactly the same way you do... there is just something about walking around and seeing street names (Dearborn, Michigan, Washtenaw, etc) that connect so strongly with home while still being in this world class metropolis. Manhattan may literally be an island, but it's also a metaphorical island with it's own slang, it's own chains, it's own news network. It is a place apart, of and unto itself. For a Midwesterner, Chicago is home writ large. The architecture, the culture, the food, all are part and parcel with the region as a whole. Speaking from my own experiences with the city and the people I know who live or have lived there, I think this kind of conversation would be easy to come by.
As an aside about Ann Arbor, I really do believe it is the ideal place to grow up, the ideal place to go to college, the ideal place to settle down and raise a family. But for someone betwixt and between, it's lacking. In your mid-20's it means watching friends leave, feeling stuck between an increasingly distant student crowd and a very tony townie crowd, and paying four digit rents to walk down the same streets every day for wont of something different. For that stage of your life, Chicago is ideal.
And I know exactly what you mean about Tampa... for a place brimming with transplants, there is very little focus on urbanism or the built environment. I asked a friend the last time I was in the area why Tampa Bay is crisscrossed by such ugly, concrete bridges instead of the iconic suspension bridges of San Francisco or New York and the only response I got is a shrug. My general impression is that the Gulf Coast, a place I generally love and enjoy, is a place where young people go to retire (to paraphrase Portlandia).
Absolutely. There's simultaneously a sense of familiarity and wonder all at the same time. It's that Midwestern "comfort" in a very dense and urban package that is exceeded by only one other city in the country. NYC has never been on my radar. I've never identified with anything about it. The pace, attitudes, sports teams, cost of living, etc. It's all like a different world for me. Works great for some people. That's fantastic. Just not for me. I don't think I'd ever feel "at home" there.
Yeah, A2 is a great place to raise a family. I don't ever plan to have children, so A2 probably wouldn't be an overly fantastic place for me to live long term. I did enjoy my time there, though. I think it's a great smaller city.
Yeah, Tampa is interesting. All of these people from all over the place. You think that would add a ton of value and perspective to the place. But instead it seems to take away both. It's very strange. Indeed, it's a place for young retirees, since there's that "manana, manana" thing going on. In fact, that's one of the reasons I first moved here. I was broke back in 2009. Recently let go from my auto job when the Big Three were at risk of going under. I was determined to never be in that spot again, so I came down here to forge an early retirement plan. And it worked out, as I quit my job at 32 years old a few years ago. I now live largely off of passive income. But along the way, I started to read about urban development, TOD, public transit initiatives (like the massive Sound Transit 3 in Seattle), walkability studies, etc. It just clicked for me. It was like something I was missing all along, which means I'm kind of switching gears from living in a place that's more well designed for my early retirement lifestyle, toward a place that's more well designed for my growing passion for urbanity. Chicago naturally fits for a variety of reasons, but I guess I just expected less cars, surface parking, and traffic in Lakeview, Wicker Park, and Lincoln Park. A lot of Chicagoans come from other places. Some really like their cars. I get it.
Speaking of Portlandia, Portland is another great town. Was there in January to scout it out. It has some great things going on. Super beautiful. And the winter weather is so mild compared to the upper Midwest. The MAX is fantastic and clean. The buses are also very clean. This might sound crazy, but I saw similar pedestrian activity in their Pearl District to what I saw in Lakeview. But the rain, hipsters, and lack of density might be a turn-off to some people. The urbanity there is very limited. But it is gorgeous. I think what Portland has done especially well is the development of their pocket parks, which complements the urban environments wonderfully. Parks like Director Park, Jamison Square, and Tanner Springs Park come to mind. A very interesting place.
I guess I think of myself as a guy who likes to sit over cheap coffee and talk about philanthropy and TOD. I'm a frugal dork with a fascination for urbanity. Growing up in the Midwest, Chicago is kind of my "capitol". So it holds a special place in my heart. It's my favorite skyline. My favorite food (especially the thin-crust pizza). I love the rusty L tracks. The noise. The parks. Everything really. Maybe I just need to go. It's not like Trump is building a wall across Florida's border. I can always move back if it doesn't work.
Urbanity doesn't mean what you think it means, at least not to the extent you have been HARPING on it. According to the Merriam Webster dictionary, the primary definition has nothing to do with it:
ur·ban·i·ty
/ˌərˈbanədē/
noun
1. suavity, courteousness, and refinement of manner.
2. urban life.
Sure, #2 is urban life. We are ALL in Chicago living an urban life. YOU just don't approve of the way some of us live our urban lives. Sure you say, oh that's fine what other people do, but you really disapprove that I use my car to go pick up kitty litter. At least that's the way you come off. You really need to get over yourself. There are lots of things that I wish other people did differently, but hey, it their lives, not mine. If you are as obsessed in real life as you come off here, you're going to bore most people silly.
For instance, however, I took the 8 bus up to Lakeview (from the West Loop) to hit a show at Schuba's. This was Saturday evening. Maybe around 9?? I know Halsted is a major thoroughfare, but the bus wasn't that busy. I figured it'd be crazy. Wasn't. But there were cars everywhere. And I was purposely watching people who were going to Schuba's for the show. Well, people were parking everywhere around that area and getting out of cars to go to the show. I figured I'd see more people walking over from blocks surrounding the venue. I guess I was just a little disappointed with it. Lest I assume this is an outlier experience, it seems to jibe with what I've seen in general in Chicago throughout the years. It's just that this last time I purposely did some exploring in/around the neighborhoods I personally find most appealing, but it was just far more surface parking lots, cars, and traffic than I expected.
There ya go again. This time looking for the 'shiny' purple unicorn
News flash- people who may attend a show @ Schuba's might not be able to take PT, etc.
I think the OP is doing a very poor job of expressing what he wants. It might be instructive to mentally replace every instance of him saying car-free lifestyle with a more common question about Chicago, like how bike-friendly is the city? Or is Chicago a good city for foodies?
Essentially, he is looking for a particular lifestyle and wants to cluster with people who share his value set. For him taking the train and bus everywhere is a value and not simply a matter of expediency. His fear is that Chicago will not be home to like-minded people because it is more car oriented than comprable cities like New York or San Francisco. As he has never really lived amongst like-minded people in cities designed entirely for the convenience of the car, where taking the bus when you can afford your own car is highly stigmatized. He has also built Chicago up and is deeply afraid of being disappointed.
Once you account for that, it's easy to realize that he's not judging other people for how they live their lives. He just wants to know if he would fit in with his particular value set and I think the answer is a resounding yes.
I think the OP is doing a very poor job of expressing what he wants. It might be instructive to mentally replace every instance of him saying car-free lifestyle with a more common question about Chicago, like how bike-friendly is the city? Or is Chicago a good city for foodies?
Essentially, he is looking for a particular lifestyle and wants to cluster with people who share his value set. For him taking the train and bus everywhere is a value and not simply a matter of expediency. His fear is that Chicago will not be home to like-minded people because it is more car oriented than comprable cities like New York or San Francisco. As he has never really lived amongst like-minded people in cities designed entirely for the convenience of the car, where taking the bus when you can afford your own car is highly stigmatized. He has also built Chicago up and is deeply afraid of being disappointed.
Once you account for that, it's easy to realize that he's not judging other people for how they live their lives. He just wants to know if he would fit in with his particular value set and I think the answer is a resounding yes.
I agree with this. Again, I think other than New York or maybe Boston (which is much smaller), I don't think he'll find a city in which people embrace the concept of and ability to take public transit more than Chicago.
I lived without a car and had no issues, except for buying furniture when I had to borrow a friend's. I lived in the Loop, worked in Portage Park, went to the gym in the West Loop, hung out all over the city. If the trains won't get you there, the buses will, and now Uber and Lyft exist (they didn't when I was there) which I imagine will fill in any gaps in the city transit. Remember the huge Southside neighborhoods that people rarely visit bring down the walk score. Walk score, I've found, is usually not very accurate...
I think the OP is doing a very poor job of expressing what he wants. It might be instructive to mentally replace every instance of him saying car-free lifestyle with a more common question about Chicago, like how bike-friendly is the city? Or is Chicago a good city for foodies?
Essentially, he is looking for a particular lifestyle and wants to cluster with people who share his value set. For him taking the train and bus everywhere is a value and not simply a matter of expediency. His fear is that Chicago will not be home to like-minded people because it is more car oriented than comprable cities like New York or San Francisco. As he has never really lived amongst like-minded people in cities designed entirely for the convenience of the car, where taking the bus when you can afford your own car is highly stigmatized. He has also built Chicago up and is deeply afraid of being disappointed.
Once you account for that, it's easy to realize that he's not judging other people for how they live their lives. He just wants to know if he would fit in with his particular value set and I think the answer is a resounding yes.
That's fair, although the OP's posts seem to come across as wanting the culture to be "anti-car" more than being "pro-public transportation". In that sense, it does come across as a judgment about other people's values despite the OP's claims to the contrary, e.g. "I don't care whether people drive... but the fact that a bunch of people drive to Schuba's really bothers me." Almost every statement where the OP claims that he doesn't care is followed up by a statement that indicates that he *really* cares in reality.
Regardless, Chicago is definitely very "pro-public transportation", but I wouldn't call it "anti-car". Granted, I don't think any city in America is truly anti-car. I know plenty of people in Manhattan who are happily living without a car and always use public transportation, but it doesn't mean that they are "anti-car". Much of it is simply that the sheer expense of parking and storing a car in Manhattan is so high that it doesn't make any sense economically to have one if you don't truly need it every single day. At the same time, land in Chicago is significantly less expensive than NYC and San Francisco, so a surface parking lot in Chicago (which seems to particularly bother the OP) could very well be the highest and best economic use for that piece of land, whereas it's worth exponentially more as a development in Manhattan or the Bay Area.
Also note that attitudes change drastically with age and family status. A carless lifestyle is significantly easier when you're single and/or don't have kids, but it's practically impossible for any family that has children (regardless of whether they live in the city or suburbs) to get by without a car (and to the extent that a family with kids doesn't have a car, it is virtually always because they can't afford one as opposed to being a proactive lifestyle choice). With more young families choosing to stay in the city of Chicago compared to past generations (which is generally a good thing for the city), there's going to be a natural rise in car usage with such families.
The OP said himself that he's looking for a culture with an ideological stance about being carless (e.g. people that could afford cars but refuse to drive them on ideological principle) as opposed to a utilitarian stance about the use of public transportation (e.g. people that take trains to the Loop but then drive to Mariano's to get groceries or maybe people that choose to not own a car based more on financial factors). I don't think that culture exists anywhere in America outside of some uber-hipster parts of Brooklyn. (Even the number of carless residents of Manhattan is more based on utilitarian issues of costs and time as opposed to ideological opposition to cars themselves as evidenced by the fact that the streets are still packed to gills with people who *do* still choose to drive there.)
I think the OP is doing a very poor job of expressing what he wants. It might be instructive to mentally replace every instance of him saying car-free lifestyle with a more common question about Chicago, like how bike-friendly is the city? Or is Chicago a good city for foodies?
Essentially, he is looking for a particular lifestyle and wants to cluster with people who share his value set. For him taking the train and bus everywhere is a value and not simply a matter of expediency. His fear is that Chicago will not be home to like-minded people because it is more car oriented than comprable cities like New York or San Francisco. As he has never really lived amongst like-minded people in cities designed entirely for the convenience of the car, where taking the bus when you can afford your own car is highly stigmatized. He has also built Chicago up and is deeply afraid of being disappointed.
Once you account for that, it's easy to realize that he's not judging other people for how they live their lives. He just wants to know if he would fit in with his particular value set and I think the answer is a resounding yes.
Perhaps I am doing a poor job of explaining myself.
Yes, I have lived in places where not driving/owning a car has been stigmatized. It's not really a big deal that affects my day-to-day life, nor do I particularly care what others think about my personal choices. And I also don't care about theirs. However, that isn't to say that I wouldn't prefer to live around other people that are more like-minded in many ways, of which making an active choice to live without a car is one of them.
When you see new developments going up across Chicago with space for massive parking garages/lots, it just makes it seem like the progressive attitude toward personal transportation doesn't really exist there, or maybe it only exists in very small pockets. And that jibes with my own personal experience when I've been up there, which is why I created the thread in the first place.
The overall vibe I'm getting from this thread is mixed, which kind of matches what I've seen throughout my trips to Chicago. I'm essentially looking for a Copenhagen or a Zurich or something in the Midwest. Chicago is the best I'll do. I know that. I'm just looking for a frame of reference from locals so as to determine whether or not my personal experiences do match reality, and also whether or not it makes sense for me to move across the country and take on all the baggage that comes with living in Chicago. It's just a personal choice I'll have to decide on.
I was in these neighborhoods on a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday last October, toward the middle of the month. The weather was pretty nice actually, so I don't think that was a major factor. I spent more time on the buses on purpose, because I feel they'd more accurately reflect my daily PT needs (over the train) because my work/life wouldn't revolve around going to/from the Loop, if I were to live/move there. The buses were absolutely packed (like sardines, absolutely) in/around the Loop. No doubt about it. For instance, however, I took the 8 bus up to Lakeview (from the West Loop) to hit a show at Schuba's. This was Saturday evening. Maybe around 9?? I know Halsted is a major thoroughfare, but the bus wasn't that busy. I figured it'd be crazy. Wasn't. But there were cars everywhere. And I was purposely watching people who were going to Schuba's for the show. Well, people were parking everywhere around that area and getting out of cars to go to the show. I figured I'd see more people walking over from blocks surrounding the venue. I guess I was just a little disappointed with it. Lest I assume this is an outlier experience, it seems to jibe with what I've seen in general in Chicago throughout the years. It's just that this last time I purposely did some exploring in/around the neighborhoods I personally find most appealing, but it was just far more surface parking lots, cars, and traffic than I expected.
Cars are always going to be everywhere in Chicago. That's just the way it is. In regards to Schuba's though, I actually would assume the majority of the cars you saw with 2-3 peoppe exiting were Ubers and Lyfys rather than personal cars. Chicago is inundated with both cars from both services, and you'll see them and taxis trolling all the nightlife areas everyday.
Additionally, the general trend in Chicago is declining bus ridership and increasing L ridership. The buses are far more affected by weather and gas prices than than the L. They're definitely viewed by a significant number of people as being the lesser form of transportation in the city. They're typically slower than the L and have dar shorter hours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonfieber
I forgot to mention that what you're stating here falls right in line with what I was mentioning quite a bit earlier on in the thread. It seems that a lot (but most certainly not all) Chicagoans who live in these vaunted N and NW neighborhoods commonly use public transit (especially the L) to get to/from the Loop for work from/to home, but then use PT far less for everyday needs/errands (instead preferring to use a car).
It seems like this to me:
"I love taking the L to [insert Loop office job here] from my pad in [insert N or NW neighborhood here]. But if I'm going out with friends, getting groceries, or doing almost anything else in my life, I use my car."
That would indicate a more utilitarian view on public transit, which isn't really where I'm at with it. Moreover, it affects the vibe/pedestrian traffic outside of rush hour across the city. But I also realize that I'm a unique guy that is in the vast minority of people in this regard, as most people all over the world prefer a car if/when possible.
You still seem to be completely underselling how much the L is used. The Red and Blue Lines are 24 hours a day 365 for a reason. Additionally, the you'll find the most available parking spots in lakefront neighborhoods from Lincoln Park up to Rogers Park during work hours rather than weekends. Spots are frankly hard to find after rush hour and on weekends.
I also don't know anyone who drives to go out, unless they're from the suburbs. You get a few tickets because you had to leave your car overnight on a permit only or pay to park street and you become broken of that. It's substantially easier, even for people who drive all the time, to just take an Uber or a cab.
Grocery store runs are more likely culprits, but even that gets weighed against whether or not you'll have some place to park after you come back in some neighborhoods.
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