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Old 03-12-2019, 11:19 PM
 
Location: In the heights
28,666 posts, read 27,880,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I don't know that it is that unique. I don't think Philly, Boston, Houston, or Atlanta have pubic law schools (at least not reputable ones). Top law schools are usually private or at the flagship university (Michigan, Berkeley, UNC, UVA, etc) which is not usually located in a major city.

Like other major cities: Philly (Penn), Boston (Harvard, BU, BC), DC (Georgetown), NYC (NYU, Columbia); Chicago has two elite private law schools (Northwestern, U Chicago). So Chicago follows the same trend as major cities.
Taking a baseline law school as being actually accredited:

Temple University in Philadelphia has a law school. Not as good as Penn’s, but not disreputable. NYC has the CUNY law school. Berkeley is quite close to SF and SF is tiny, and meanwhile UC Hastings is in SF proper. LA is also a major city and UCLA is very much a part of the city. DC does have a public law school. Houston does, too, within the University of Houston and Atlanta has one within Georgia State University. Boston and Chicago (though apparently that’s changing) come out as outliers without public law schools.
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Old 03-13-2019, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Chicago
6,360 posts, read 7,376,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Taking a baseline law school as being actually accredited:

Temple University in Philadelphia has a law school. Not as good as Penn’s, but not disreputable. NYC has the CUNY law school. Berkeley is quite close to SF and SF is tiny, and meanwhile UC Hastings is in SF proper. LA is also a major city and UCLA is very much a part of the city. DC does have a public law school. Houston does, too, within the University of Houston and Atlanta has one within Georgia State University. Boston and Chicago (though apparently that’s changing) come out as outliers without public law schools.
outlier indeed.........

US News top 100 law school rankings (public university law schools in cities):
15. UCLA
16. Texas
20. Minnesota
21. Arizona State
34. Ohio State
44. Washington
47. Utah
48. Temple
58. UNLV
59. Houston
62. Hastings (UC)
67. Georgia State
77. Pitt
83. Cincinnati
91. FIU
91. Hawaii
91. Wayne State

201 schools ranked by US News
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
5,758 posts, read 2,735,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Taking a baseline law school as being actually accredited:

Temple University in Philadelphia has a law school. Not as good as Penn’s, but not disreputable. NYC has the CUNY law school. Berkeley is quite close to SF and SF is tiny, and meanwhile UC Hastings is in SF proper. LA is also a major city and UCLA is very much a part of the city. DC does have a public law school. Houston does, too, within the University of Houston and Atlanta has one within Georgia State University. Boston and Chicago (though apparently that’s changing) come out as outliers without public law schools.
I just don't find it that odd for law schools. UCLA for LA came to mind and I knew New York had a SUNY (or CYNU). Temple did slip my mind for Philly. You could stretch and let SF claim Berkley. The bottom line is, outside of UCLA, Berkley (if you stretch and consider it a SF school), and maybe 1/2 I'm forgetting; there are no ranked public law schools in major cities, so it's not odd that they wouldn't want to open up one since they're expensive to run.

Baltimore, Miami, Houston, Dallas, SF (if you exclude Berkley), Phoenix, the list goes on and on. Major cities don't usually have public law schools.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:15 AM
 
Location: In the heights
28,666 posts, read 27,880,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
I just don't find it that odd for law schools. UCLA for LA came to mind and I knew New York had a SUNY (or CYNU). Temple did slip my mind for Philly. You could stretch and let SF claim Berkley. The bottom line is, outside of UCLA, Berkley (if you stretch and consider it a SF school), and maybe 1/2 I'm forgetting; there are no ranked public law schools in major cities, so it's not odd that they wouldn't want to open up one since they're expensive to run.

Baltimore, Miami, Houston, Dallas, SF (if you exclude Berkley), Phoenix, the list goes on and on. Major cities don't usually have public law schools.
I’m going not by ranked or not, but accredited. Major cities more often than not have a public law school, if not in the city itself then in the metropolitan area. Your first list of cities, including SF which has UC Hastings in the city itself, have public laws schools within the city except for Boston and Chicago. Houston was also in your first set and has a public law school within the University of Houston. I also don’t think it’s reasonable to divorce Berkeley from SF. These are cities with relatively tiny boundaries and the travel time between them with their heavy rail link is really fast.

Baltimore has a public law school as the University of Maryland’s law school is in Baltimore and it’s a tier I ranked school. Miami has a public law school within FIU in Miami (also a city with tiny boundaries). Dallas also has one in city boundaries with UNT Dallas, but also in the DFW metroplex. Phoenix has a public law school as well, since ASU’s law school is in Phoenix proper and ranks fairly well.

So within both your first and second list of cities, and even with what might be a needlessly strict requirement for it to be within city boundaries, all except Boston and Chicago have accredited public law schools so thus far these are the odd ones out, and if this thing with John Marshall goes through, Boston will be the really odd one out. Both these cities have a public law school way, way out in the metropolitan area though so I can understand excluding these, but it seems less reasonable for places like Berkeley and Arlington, VA.

Public law schools within major cities are maybe a lot more common than you initially thought. For “ranked” public law schools, what are you using for the cutoff?

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-13-2019 at 08:28 AM..
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I’m going not by ranked or not, but accredited. Major cities more often than not have a public law school, if not in the city itself then in the metropolitan area. Your first list of cities, including SF which has UC Hastings in the city itself, have public laws schools within the city except for Boston and Chicago. Houston was also in your first set and has a public law school within the University of Houston. I also don’t think it’s reasonable to divorce Berkeley from SF. These are cities with relatively tiny boundaries and the travel time between them with their heavy rail link is really fast.

Baltimore has a public law school as the University of Maryland’s law school is in Baltimore and it’s a tier I ranked school. Miami has a public law school within FIU in Miami (also a city with tiny boundaries). Dallas also has one in city boundaries with UNT Dallas, but also in the DFW metroplex. Phoenix has a public law school as well, since ASU’s law school is in Phoenix proper and ranks fairly well.

So within both your first and second list of cities, and even with what might be a needlessly strict requirement for it to be within city boundaries, all except Boston and Chicago have accredited public law schools so thus far these are the odd ones out, and if this thing with John Marshall goes through, Boston will be the really odd one out. Both these cities have a public law school way, way out in the metropolitan area though so I can understand excluding these, but it seems less reasonable for places like Berkeley and Arlington, VA.

Public law schools within major cities are maybe a lot more common than you initially thought. For “ranked” public law schools, what are you using for the cutoff?
The universal answer I have always heard from my attorney friends (and general media), is that law school is an absolute waste of money if you aren’t going to a top 25. Even then, many say that it only makes sense as an investment for the top 10-15. Now, I don’t fully believe that is a universal truth. I would suspect that smaller (even unranked) regional law firms could provide local opportunities for graduates. However, going to a low tier (non top 25), seems like you will be competing among the best of the best and will have to be a very strong graduate to land a job. The biggest problem I have heard in law is that there are not enough corporate law jobs. One of the strengths of the top 10 schools (Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Michigan, Berkeley, etc) is their internship placement, which leads to the first job. A friend was telling me that many non top 25 graduates have to set up their own small law practices, which many are not suited to do (or want to do).
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:04 PM
 
Location: In the heights
28,666 posts, read 27,880,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by personone View Post
The universal answer I have always heard from my attorney friends (and general media), is that law school is an absolute waste of money if you aren’t going to a top 25. Even then, many say that it only makes sense as an investment for the top 10-15. Now, I don’t fully believe that is a universal truth. I would suspect that smaller (even unranked) regional law firms could provide local opportunities for graduates. However, going to a low tier (non top 25), seems like you will be competing among the best of the best and will have to be a very strong graduate to land a job. The biggest problem I have heard in law is that there are not enough corporate law jobs. One of the strengths of the top 10 schools (Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Michigan, Berkeley, etc) is their internship placement, which leads to the first job. A friend was telling me that many non top 25 graduates have to set up their own small law practices, which many are not suited to do (or want to do).
I get that about cost-benefit and I also get that a law school might not really be that valuable for a university. As someone who looked into this years ago when I was considering my options, but that going into law school including a T14 school was not an attractive option for me.

However, the fact is that having a public law school in a major metropolitan area, often one in the main city, is not rare. Not having one is rare. That’s the point I’m making.

As for the cost-benefit analysis, there’s a bit more nuance than just going to a T14 law school and how those are worth it and the rest are not. One is that it’s also dependent on what field within law you’re actually looking towards. A T14 school by reputation alone makes it decently easy to have a pretty broad scope for where you can go, but some schools outside of T14 have specialties where they excel and those can be worth it. The other part of it is that the cost for law school can vary wildly. The public law school in NYC, CUNY School of Law, is almost ridiculously inexpensive compared to the cost of the average law school and that’s a financially viable path for many graduates. Then there are much more specific personal contexts such as receiving a particular scholarship or grant that greatly lowers the cost burden of going to a specific law school and the general bit about personal competence, work ethic and luck.

And then there's the very specific point about city boundaries--Berkeley is about as quick a trip to downtown SF as the Hyde Park to Loop trip. Then again, the original point I made was that public law schools, T14 or not, are common to have in major cities and so UC Hastings fulfills that technicality.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-13-2019 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Brackenwood
6,404 posts, read 2,561,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I’m going not by ranked or not, but accredited. Major cities more often than not have a public law school, if not in the city itself then in the metropolitan area. [/snip]
Technically the metropolitan area already has a public law school at NIU, but that's by sheer accident of suburban growth rather than a strategic decision to locate within the metropolitan area.

Personally I think it's stupid U of I has its flagship law school in Chambana when there's a hundred times more legal opportunities/exposure in Chicago. It will be interesting to see if John Marshall surpasses UIUC in the coming decades for that reason. I guess it depends on whether UIC wants to make John Marshall a lot more selective than it historically has been.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
5,758 posts, read 2,735,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
Technically the metropolitan area already has a public law school at NIU, but that's by sheer accident of suburban growth rather than a strategic decision to locate within the metropolitan area.

Personally I think it's stupid U of I has its flagship law school in Chambana when there's a hundred times more legal opportunities/exposure in Chicago. It will be interesting to see if John Marshall surpasses UIUC in the coming decades for that reason. I guess it depends on whether UIC wants to make John Marshall a lot more selective than it historically has been.
The problem with John Marshall is that with 2 top 10-15 blue-blood law schools in the city, their ceiling for being able to take advantage of legal opportunities/exposure in Chicago is very low (U Chicago and Northwestern have and will continue to lock down the best opportunities for law students). Being affiliated with UIC will only improve the school so much. It will likely provide a few more opportunities due to having some more state-supported money, but it will likely continue to look and operate similarly to how it currently does today.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:35 PM
 
Location: In the heights
28,666 posts, read 27,880,756 times
Reputation: 15332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
Technically the metropolitan area already has a public law school at NIU, but that's by sheer accident of suburban growth rather than a strategic decision to locate within the metropolitan area.

Personally I think it's stupid U of I has its flagship law school in Chambana when there's a hundred times more legal opportunities/exposure in Chicago. It will be interesting to see if John Marshall surpasses UIUC in the coming decades for that reason. I guess it depends on whether UIC wants to make John Marshall a lot more selective than it historically has been.
I did mention that earlier! My mention came with the caveat that it is way the **** out of Chicago though in the metropolitan area (it's the same for Boston, the other major city without a public law school in the city or in close vicinity).

I agree that Chicago as a major metropolitan area should maybe consider a decent public law school. Maybe not a T14, but at least something that does okay for the region. They really should make it a lot more selective or pursue being great in very specific things as law school isn't cheap.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:57 PM
 
465 posts, read 290,951 times
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This is great news! I have high hopes for UIC being a top 50 university in 50 years.
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