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View Poll Results: Does IL need a 2nd flagship? If so, who should get designated?
No. The Univ of Illinois should remain only flagship 12 42.86%
Yes, UIC would be best 8 28.57%
Yes, ISU would be best 6 21.43%
Yes. NIU would be best 1 3.57%
Yes. SIU would be best 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-27-2019, 09:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
For example: both U of C and NU are largely considered to be the best two universities in the Midwest or, more appropriately, two of the three, the other being the University of Michigan.
I would say Notre Dame and probably Wash U in St. Louis would be above U of Michigan. I realize this is mostly subjective, but the US News and World Report rankings agree with me.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
I would say Notre Dame and probably Wash U in St. Louis would be above U of Michigan. I realize this is mostly subjective, but the US News and World Report rankings agree with me.
You are correct- a very subjective topic.

U of Michigan is generally considered a better institution than ND or WU because of the sheer amount of high quality research and programs there. Think, Department of Defense related. As has been mentioned already, they have the ability to behave somewhat like an Ivy by leveraging the huge endowment in combination with benefits of being a large public institution with some access to public (federal) money.
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
UIC is gradually becoming the de facto second flagship. For one it's no longer a glorified community college. They have built a lot of residential units and the neighborhood around it is becoming more student-oriented. It now houses the state's primary medical school with UIUC's med school basically becoming an offshoot of Carle and more focused on biotech than general medical practice. And recently gaining its own law school seals the deal to make UIC a fully comprehensive public university. And of course being located in the heart of the state's megalopolis doesn't hurt.

And the results are in: UIC's enrollment is steadily climbing toward UIUC's, now standing at 32,000.

The only thing UIC lacks is a strong athletic program, the importance of which shouldn't be underestimated as a marketing tool.
The combining of UICC with UI Med to create UIC really increased the school's stature. As you noted, when the Circle campus opened, the medical center just a mile away from it was part of UIUC. UIC's workings to acquire (merge?) with Marshall Law is another move designed to create the status that goes with universities that have both law and med schools. The model being used is the same one that MSU used when it acquired the Detroit College of Law (although that one actually had a physical move from Detroit to East Lansing), again the idea of a public university having a private component. And MSU, a school with both law and medicine and a helluva lot more certainly has raised its profile (other than falling off an i beam in a gymnastics meet).
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
I would say Notre Dame and probably Wash U in St. Louis would be above U of Michigan. I realize this is mostly subjective, but the US News and World Report rankings agree with me.
I would say....point well taken. I think the only real "lock" in there is that the U of C is the best in the midwest.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
Well, if it's a state flagship, then it's obviously more than a Chicago issue. Otherwise you should title it: "Does Chicago think UIC should be designated a flagship university?" I'm sure you would get wildly different answers if you asked people in, say, Bloomington, DeKalb, or Edwardsville than simply Chicago.



Here's really the crux of the issue, in my opinion:

Texas is a highly populated, fast-growing state (and most of its cities are rapidly growing) in population and economy. Its surrounding states don't offer a slew of academically competitive options. Of course it is going to be under pressure to add more high-caliber universities to suite the expanding needs of its people.

Illinois and Chicago are basically shrinking in population, and the economics of the state and city are disasters. Illinois has several fantastic universities (private and public) that offer nearly everything at a high level but are extremely competitive to get into (UofC, NU, UIUC). Illinois also has several good next-tier universities (UIC, ISU, NIU, SIU) and several local small universities and major community college systems to meet the needs of its population. Illinois is also surrounded by states with excellent additional state universities that have more slots available than their populations warrant and offer competitive scholarships and differing perspectives that lure students in Illinois away.

There is little pressure in Illinois (and little money or support from state and local governments) to be able to do anything greater than maintaining the status quo (and even that is a struggle in some instances). Thus the need seems minimal, and the economics to make said pipe dream a reality are basically non-existent.
Maintainschoas, it is hard to take your perspectives seriously when they are based on a paradigm that says basically: Illinois bad, Chicago bad, all other places: better.

Private universities are not an issue. The University of Chicago and Northwestern University do not serve Chicago or the Chicago area. Like other private universities, they are overwhelmingly made up of out-of-state students.

If UIC is made a second flagship, it serves the entire state, just like U of I does. It also puts a state's flagship in a location where some 2/3 of the state's population is within driving/commuting distance to it.

I do agree that we are surrounded by smaller states that have excellent public flagships and that due to less of a population pressure, large numbers of Chicago area kids end up in Bloomington, Iowa City, Madison, etc. But those students should have an instate university outside of U of I that offers them in-state tuition at a flagship university.

Pipe dream? Why is this a pipe dream? It is strictly a policy insofar as it is bestowing a designation. A pipe dream would be to create the Lincoln Grant Reagan Obama University in the middle of an Illinois corn field and allocating billions for its construction. Do you really think that taking a world class city (realizing full well you see nothing world class about it) and combining it with a public university identified as a flagship wouldn't generate a heck of a lot of economic activity and create a strong positive energy?
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland
4,621 posts, read 6,142,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
Maintainschoas, it is hard to take your perspectives seriously when they are based on a paradigm that says basically: Illinois bad, Chicago bad, all other places: better.
Give me a break. This is 1) not a paradigm that I have even remotely proposed and 2) not the rhetorical slant that I have taken. Illinois and Chicago are both losing population and are financial messes. This is fact, and a fact that I state as someone who lived in Illinois (both central IL and Chicago) for over 23 years, who has family all over the state, and who still owns property in the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
Do you really think that taking a world class city (realizing full well you see nothing world class about it) ...
What in the world are you talking about? I love Chicago, I am back in Chicago multiple times a year, and I generally sing its praises. I lived in Chicago for years and loved it.

It seems that what you take umbrage of is that I point out how fiscal issues with the city and state and population stagnation make declaring another flagship likely unfeasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post

Pipe dream? Why is this a pipe dream? It is strictly a policy insofar as it is bestowing a designation
It's a pipe dream because it takes concerted effort of political will power and, in order to make something an actual flagship university in stature rather than just symbolically, it takes *money*. As you even said,:

Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
as for "just declaring a school a flagship" has nothing to do with it....its about serving the needs of the state...But with the designation comes a plan of how the university is to be developed. And just by designating a university as a flagship helps it reach the status the state needs.
I work in higher education. Alluding to deciding "how the university is to be developed" often times comes with more investment at state and local levels, and inflated vice-assistant-interim-supporter-of-the-provost bureaucratic positions that cost $$$. Neither Chicago nor Illinois are banking in the black right now, meaning exactly what I said: it's a pipe dream. Hell, universities in the state like WIU and EIU are withering on the vine struggling to survive due to previous budget issues.

I love Illinois, but I don't buy the argument for why Illinois needs a designated second flagship is unnecessary and will remain unrealized. If Illinois ever were to do so, I hope the good senses would prevail that it should be outside of Chicagoland, where investment is (in my opinion) sorely needed.
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:16 PM
 
Location: IL
497 posts, read 407,265 times
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What about Chicago State, Governors State, Western, Eastern, Northeastern, SIUE and Illinois at Springfield?
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Brackenwood
6,208 posts, read 2,462,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
The combining of UICC with UI Med to create UIC really increased the school's stature. As you noted, when the Circle campus opened, the medical center just a mile away from it was part of UIUC. UIC's workings to acquire (merge?) with Marshall Law is another move designed to create the status that goes with universities that have both law and med schools. The model being used is the same one that MSU used when it acquired the Detroit College of Law (although that one actually had a physical move from Detroit to East Lansing), again the idea of a public university having a private component. And MSU, a school with both law and medicine and a helluva lot more certainly has raised its profile (other than falling off an i beam in a gymnastics meet).
At last check the UIC/John Marshall merger was a done deal and the incoming Fall 2019 students will officially be UIC students. I confess though I haven't followed up on the progress for the last couple months. Also, the law school won't be considered a "private component" as if a mere partnership between two distinct entities. UIC now has full control and autonomy over JMLS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deeman7 View Post
What about Chicago State, Governors State, Western, Eastern, Northeastern, SIUE and Illinois at Springfield?
None are going to be secondary flagship schools in our lifetimes. In fact, I'd bet that between Chicago State, Governors State, EIU, WIU, and NEIU, at least one, possibly two of them will no longer be going concerns 20 years from now. Chicago State is such an academic embarrassment the state should probably just cut their losses and close it down. EIU and WIU have been bleeding students for about a decade now. EIU in particular has at least one 12-story dorm that is completely vacant and is actually being used by the ROTC program for close-quarters combat training.

Last edited by Bitey; 06-27-2019 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 06-27-2019, 04:19 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
2,601 posts, read 2,528,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25 View Post
The combining of UICC with UI Med to create UIC really increased the school's stature. As you noted, when the Circle campus opened, the medical center just a mile away from it was part of UIUC. UIC's workings to acquire (merge?) with Marshall Law is another move designed to create the status that goes with universities that have both law and med schools. The model being used is the same one that MSU used when it acquired the Detroit College of Law (although that one actually had a physical move from Detroit to East Lansing), again the idea of a public university having a private component. And MSU, a school with both law and medicine and a helluva lot more certainly has raised its profile (other than falling off an i beam in a gymnastics meet).
It's my understanding that the first year of John Marshall students that will also be UIC students is the current incoming class, so the merger has already happened. As the above poster mentioned, the students will be UIC students and JMLS will no longer be a private law school. It'll also become the cheapest law school in Chicago thanks to the tuition drop, and the state's 4th public law school (UIUC, Northern, and Southern being the other 3).

That being said, the SIU system also has both a law school and a medical school. They aren't located at the same campus though. The medical school is in Springfield and the law school is in Carbondale.
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Old 06-27-2019, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Chicago
6,360 posts, read 7,343,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
At last check the UIC/John Marshall merger was a done deal and the incoming Fall 2019 students will officially be UIC students. I confess though I haven't followed up on the progress for the last couple months. Also, the law school won't be considered a "private component" as if a mere partnership between two distinct entities. UIC now has full control and autonomy over JMLS.



None are going to be secondary flagship schools in our lifetimes. In fact, I'd bet that between Chicago State, Governors State, EIU, WIU, and NEIU, at least one, possibly two of them will no longer be going concerns 20 years from now. Chicago State is such an academic embarrassment the state should probably just cut their losses and close it down. EIU and WIU have been bleeding students for about a decade now. EIU in particular has at least one 12-story dorm that is completely vacant and is actually being used by the ROTC program for close-quarters combat training.
I was aware that in acquiring Marshall, UIC wanted the law school to become public. It was my impression that if Marshall were to remain private but part of UIC, it still would be fully a part of the university, not an affiliate.

I had drawn a parralel between UIC and Marshall withe MSU and Detroit Law. The law school is now MSU Law but still private in the sense it gets no public funding. Like UIC, MSU is working to make the law school public

It is rare, but there have always been some hybred public/private, particularly Cornell which reverses what UIC and MSU do since it is a private university that has a public component as it is NYS’s land grant university
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