Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Does IL need a 2nd flagship? If so, who should get designated?
No. The Univ of Illinois should remain only flagship 12 42.86%
Yes, UIC would be best 8 28.57%
Yes, ISU would be best 6 21.43%
Yes. NIU would be best 1 3.57%
Yes. SIU would be best 1 3.57%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-05-2019, 12:22 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 826,504 times
Reputation: 1401

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
I get the feeling that a lot of you did not attend high-ranking colleges/universities. There are a lot of people who excel in both academics and athletics. Schools like Northwestern, Michigan, and Illinois offer elite educations and opportunities to participate in Big Ten Conference athletics. Those are very attractive features.
I get the idea YOU not only didn't attend a "high-ranking university" (especially since you count Illinois as one) but also don't know much about about them or how university admissions, marketing, and budgeting work at all. Top D1 football and basketball recruits are very rarely (almost never) going to be the same people who are the top candidates for admission to highly selective universities on the basis of academic promise. There might be an occasional one every now and then, but not enough to justify the expense of maintaining a highly competitive NCAA D1 athletic program for places like U of C.

What *is* true is that many top students applying to highly selective schools participate in athletics at some level and wish to continue doing so competitively. This is why most top universities will have some kind of athletic program. I'm just saying the ones who have the top D1 football and basketball programs aren't doing so to attract top scholars to play on those teams. They're doing it to get themselves on TV, in the March Madness brackets/pools, and in the national consciousness in general. Schools with top-notch academic reputations don't need that, because they are already known, at least among the type of applicant they are seeking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiruko View Post
There are many schools like BYU that have not won many championships but nonetheless have highly regarded and elite athletic programs.
Mod cut.

I never said only athletic programs that win many championships are elite. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 07-07-2019 at 03:08 PM.. Reason: Rude; off-topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-05-2019, 12:41 PM
 
8,276 posts, read 11,839,090 times
Reputation: 10075
The University of Illinois, an elite school? Since when?

I guess someone's trying to upgrade his alma mater. You could argued that the U of I might be attracting better students these days ( like any state university), but that's largely to avoid paying off loads of student debt after attending elite, private schools.

I went to a state university in New England, and it was decent ( I guess), but far from elite. I have no illusions whatsoever about that..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2019, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Illinois
3,205 posts, read 3,470,577 times
Reputation: 4239
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
I get the idea YOU not only didn't attend a "high-ranking university" (especially since you count Illinois as one)...
I've never even been to Urbana or Champaign let alone the University. I did my undergraduate at NU. I think a lot of lurkers in this subforum know that.

Illinois has one of the most well-regarded engineering and computer science programs in the country. There are many intelligent students and alumni of Illinois—enough for it to have a global reputation.

Mod cut: Orphaned (reply to comment which has been deleted).

Last edited by PJSaturn; 07-07-2019 at 03:09 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2019, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
4,671 posts, read 7,343,726 times
Reputation: 5330
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
The University of Illinois, an elite school? Since when?

I guess someone's trying to upgrade his alma mater. You could argued that the U of I might be attracting better students these days ( like any state university), but that's largely to avoid paying off loads of student debt after attending elite, private schools.

I went to a state university in New England, and it was decent ( I guess), but far from elite. I have no illusions whatsoever about that..
UIUC (not UIC or UIS) is definitely neck-and-neck with Wisconsin as the second-best public school in the Midwest (with Michigan being the obvious leader). As far as public universities in the country go, Illinois is one of the best overall in the same league as GA Tech and UCSD, with programs in engineering (across a wide swath of sub disciplines), comp sci, chemistry, physics, psychology, library sciences etc. being in the top echelon in the U.S. I mean, it’s not Stanford, but it’s a pretty elite public university.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2019, 08:22 PM
 
3,674 posts, read 8,627,566 times
Reputation: 3085
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassVt View Post
The University of Illinois, an elite school? Since when?

I guess someone's trying to upgrade his alma mater. You could argued that the U of I might be attracting better students these days ( like any state university), but that's largely to avoid paying off loads of student debt after attending elite, private schools.

I went to a state university in New England, and it was decent ( I guess), but far from elite. I have no illusions whatsoever about that..
UoI has 24 Nobel Prize winners. The researchers of that state system are of such quality that they pull in a substantial amount of grant money for primary research.

It is, indeed, an elite school. I sincerely doubt that either you or I would qualify for their elite programs.

There is an interpretation of elite that I doubt you meant (or know), and that is the Harvard/Yale feeder program that pumps alumni into government service.

My bottom line is this: Forget all undergrad programs, because they mean nothing. The only good undergrad programs are state schools that have the resources to actually focus on students. If you graduate with a PhD from a University of Illinois program, especially in the sciences, you will absolutely be plugged into a network that allows you to become an academic superstar.

They can produce researchers who advance the boundaries of human knowledge. Really, what other definition of elite matters? I went to UC for both undergrad and law school, and I certainly would not argue that what I do is even equally important.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2019, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Chicago
6,359 posts, read 8,758,560 times
Reputation: 5869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
UIUC (not UIC or UIS) is definitely neck-and-neck with Wisconsin as the second-best public school in the Midwest (with Michigan being the obvious leader). As far as public universities in the country go, Illinois is one of the best overall in the same league as GA Tech and UCSD, with programs in engineering (across a wide swath of sub disciplines), comp sci, chemistry, physics, psychology, library sciences etc. being in the top echelon in the U.S. I mean, it’s not Stanford, but it’s a pretty elite public university.
I would agree with you about Illinois being among the best public universities in the US. Obviously it is private universities that occupy the highest rung in any sort of university ranking system.

There are four stand out publics that generally crack into that upper tier and, I think, the gap below the four is more than noticeable. They would be Cal, UVA, U-M and UCLA. Those four are elites.

Illinois, as noted, belongs in that UW, UNC, W&M, U-Dub, UT, a number of UC's other than Cal and UCLA, and such, a range below those four
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2019, 09:49 AM
 
1,080 posts, read 826,504 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
UIUC (not UIC or UIS) is definitely neck-and-neck with Wisconsin as the second-best public school in the Midwest
I wouldn't necessarily argue against that. That's a lot different than saying they are a highly-selective or elite university by national standards, though, especially when including private schools. They are top 50 on a good day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2019, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Maryland
4,671 posts, read 7,343,726 times
Reputation: 5330
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkylarkPhotoBooth View Post
I wouldn't necessarily argue against that. That's a lot different than saying they are a highly-selective or elite university by national standards, though, especially when including private schools. They are top 50 on a good day.
UIUC is considered a public ivy (FWIW), but you can’t really compare most public and private universities, as the public’s are generally larger and necessarily must serve a larger and more diverse population, which often skews silly things like glam-mag rankings. However, I would argue that at these top public unis you have students at the top end completely on par with those at the private universities. Regarding UIUC, if you come from the engineering or other STEM disciplines (especially the graduate programs) at Illinois, you absolutely would be included on a list of elite and extremely competitive students by national standards. Many of these programs are top 10 in the U.S. and are some of the most competitive in the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2019, 10:30 AM
 
1,080 posts, read 826,504 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
UIUC is considered a public ivy (FWIW)
Now that's funny. "Public Ivy" is not a formal designation, and there have been various lists with that title compiled by various people. The only "Public Ivy" list I've seen that includes UIUC is the very long 2001 Greene's Guide list, which gives that designation to 11 of the current Big 10 schools, among many others.

The original Public Ivy list published in 1985 only included two Midwestern schools-- Michigan and Miami University in Ohio.

Yes, Illinois has a great engineering program, like many of the Morrill Act land grant universities across the Midwest and the country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-06-2019, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Chicago
6,359 posts, read 8,758,560 times
Reputation: 5869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintainschaos View Post
UIUC is considered a public ivy (FWIW), but you can’t really compare most public and private universities, as the public’s are generally larger and necessarily must serve a larger and more diverse population, which often skews silly things like glam-mag rankings. However, I would argue that at these top public unis you have students at the top end completely on par with those at the private universities. Regarding UIUC, if you come from the engineering or other STEM disciplines (especially the graduate programs) at Illinois, you absolutely would be included on a list of elite and extremely competitive students by national standards. Many of these programs are top 10 in the U.S. and are some of the most competitive in the world.
Somehow that "must serve a larger and more diverse population," concept is getting weaker and weaker. Maybe you can't compare most public universities to private ones, but you sure can with some.

In fact, some of our most elite publics are acting less and less public these days. The more elite, it would appear, the less public.

Take for example...Michigan.

The University of Michigan has ended up being about as public as the University of Pennsylvania is. U-M is not there to serve its state. I would consider MSU as being the main public university in Michigan because it is public. U-M gets minimal expenditure from the state of Michigan, is rolling in endowment money, serves a study body made up of in-state kids no more than 50%. And the people is so loaded with autonomy it can literally do what it wants.

What about UVA? Does it not look and act as a private university? UVA enrollment is some 22,000. Total. You don't get a flagship university of that size unless you are North Dakota or Delaware......or a state that is treating its flagship as if it were a private institution. The smaller, in-state W&M looks even more private.

I don't think there is much question that there is a trend for our top rated public universities to are becoming more exclusive, less state serving, and bordering on being private. Look at Pennsylvania and its "public" flagship: is Pennsylvania State University a public university? No, it is not. At one time it was. Now Penn State runs itself, almost private in nature, as it has the classification of being "state related", a designation that both Temple and Pitt also hold. The commonwealth of Pennsylvania gives these schools money to give in-state students a tuition break....which is exactly what private Cornell does with its publicly related land-grant divisions, such as agriculture.

When I went to college back in the 60's (UIC), the state was throwing in about 80% the cost of my tuition to my 20. In this era when student debt has basically turned into "having a mortgage without having a home" and where civilized nations give their students virtually free college, the 80/20 split of my debt-less era has been turned into 20-80 and there just isn't much public in the public.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Illinois > Chicago

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top