Should Illinois have a second flagship university? (Chicago, Springfield: dorm, buy)
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UC (Univ of Chicago) and NWU are big and are Ivy League competition in academics.
Those are private universities. When people talk about a particular state's flagship university or universities, they mean the actual state universities-- hence the reason the OP listed large state schools as choices in the poll.
From my perspective it seems that within Chicago, UIC has a reputation at least nearly, if not completely, on par with UIUC. I think it's going to be a long time before the rest of the nation and world view it that way, though. Outside of the state of Illinois, UIUC is just known as "Illinois".
Last edited by SkylarkPhotoBooth; 06-26-2019 at 09:54 PM..
When I think of the primary "flagship universities" of Illinois, I think if (in no partciular ranking or order) the following: University of Chicago, Northwestern University, University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana. Otherwise, one might also add: Univeristy of Illinois at Chicago, Ilinois Institute of Technology.
How is it that you think that the "University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana" is the only singular noteworthy university in the state of Illinois? "Northwestern University" and the "University of Chicago" are just as preeminent (if not even more so in some comparisons). Unless I don't understand what you mean when you use the term "flagship university".
He means the same thing everyone means when they talk about flagship universities of states-- the primary state universities. Only two of the five you listed are even state universities at all.
Last edited by SkylarkPhotoBooth; 06-26-2019 at 09:55 PM..
Those are private universities. When people talk about a particular state's flagship university or universities, they mean the actual state universities-- hence the reason the OP listed large state schools as choices in the poll.
From my perspective it seems that within Chicago, UIC has a reputation at least nearly, if not completely, on par with UIUC. I think it's going to be a long time before the rest of the nation and world view it that way, though. Outside of the state UIUC is just known as "Illinois".
I don’t believe this is the case. UIC’s handicap among academics is that it is still considered somewhat of a commuter school, contrary of what locals know about many of its programs. YMMV
I didn't realize flagships were actually "designated". I thought it was de facto, based on size, athletic conference, etc.
It depends on the state. In some states the state legislature or board(s) of regents officially designate them, and fund/structure them accordingly. In other states it is de facto, as you say, based on history, reputation, etc. I'm honestly not sure which is the case for Illinois, but it's clear there is only one, as with Wisconsin, Missouri, Nebraska, and Arkansas-- not two as with Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas.
UIC is gradually becoming the de facto second flagship. For one it's no longer a glorified community college. They have built a lot of residential units and the neighborhood around it is becoming more student-oriented. It now houses the state's primary medical school with UIUC's med school basically becoming an offshoot of Carle and more focused on biotech than general medical practice. And recently gaining its own law school seals the deal to make UIC a fully comprehensive public university. And of course being located in the heart of the state's megalopolis doesn't hurt.
And the results are in: UIC's enrollment is steadily climbing toward UIUC's, now standing at 32,000.
The only thing UIC lacks is a strong athletic program, the importance of which shouldn't be underestimated as a marketing tool.
• some asked why I didn't post this on IL forum.....that one seems to get little attention and I was frankly interested in a Chicago area perspective on the issue
• if you google, "flagship public universities", you will find plenty of articles that explain why a flagship is important to the state.....as the research facility it is, in its ability to serve highly qualified students. It is seen as an economic benefit for the state.
As I noted, Texas is under pressure to add a third flagship to go along with UT Austin and TAMU. NYS is viewed as at a disadvantage for not having a public flagship as no SUNY has such an identity.
Let's say a typical public flagship has 40,000 students for the sake of argument. Using that metric, Illinois, the largest midwestern state, offers that particular public education for those of great ability for the (let's call it) 40,000 U of I students. Our neighbors in Indiana, a far smaller state, might have (let's call it) 80,000 slots for students at IU and Purdue. And both of those institutions are important to their state.
This isn't a beauty contest, nor is it an exercise to tout certain universities...it is about serving the state. I offered up four choices, the only ones I felt that had the stature to be considered. Do I have a bias? Probably. I am a UIC grad and yes, I do think that university would make the most sense. But I wasn't stacking the deck here by any means. In fact, I think either UIC or ISU would make a lot of sense as a second flagship. But a Chicago/Chicagoland perspective, UIC makes so much sense
I didn't realize flagships were actually "designated". I thought it was de facto, based on size, athletic conference, etc.
For example, ISU is not in a power 5 conference, so it's kind of not a "flagship" as it has zero national presence, really.
The only Illinois school that really meets that criteria is Northwestern, but that's a different entity altogether.
Is Colorado State a flagship school? Or Alabama State? The latter, definitely not, and the former, likely not. Utah State? Georgia State? No. But Clemson is, along with South Carolina. Mostly due to sports.
I guess my point is that just declaring a school a flagship school rings about as hollow to me as Michael Scott declaring "BANKRUPTCY!" in the middle of his office.
Flagship status is not connected to athletics, although these high profile schools generally have power 5 status. Obviously Northwestern, a private university, isn't part of the discussion.
As for
Sticking the word of its own "State" implies nothing in the way of determining a school's status. SW Missouri St, seeking a more "state wide" profile, was able to change its name to Missouri State which did not change its status one bit...Mizzou is the state's only flagship..
I would feel reasonably comfortable of calling Iowa State, Michigan State, Florida State and Arizona State as flagship type institutions. There is no way that Illinois State, Indiana State, Arkansas State or Missouri State are flagships.
So it really isn't a name game. Purdue, Clemson, and Auburn are the same type of institutions as MSU, ISU, and FSU.
And to boot....
INDIANA
Flagship university: Indiana University
None flagship university: Indiana State University
OHIO
Flagship university: Ohio State University
None flagship university: Ohio University
as for "just declaring a school a flagship" has nothing to do with it....its about serving the needs of the state. Obviously neither UIC or ISU would look like "a flagship university" if either was so designated. But with the designation comes a plan of how the university is to be developed. And just by designating a university as a flagship helps it reach the status the state needs.
When I think of the primary "flagship universities" of Illinois, I think if (in no partciular ranking or order) the following: University of Chicago, Northwestern University, University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana. Otherwise, one might also add: Univeristy of Illinois at Chicago, Ilinois Institute of Technology.
How is it that you think that the "University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana" is the only singular noteworthy university in the state of Illinois? "Northwestern University" and the "University of Chicago" are just as preeminent (if not even more so in some comparisons). Unless I don't understand what you mean when you use the term "flagship university".
guilty as charged. Problem is, until I read this thread, I had never heard of either Evanston or Hyde Park. You learn something new every day.
Those are private universities. When people talk about a particular state's flagship university or universities, they mean the actual state universities-- hence the reason the OP listed large state schools as choices in the poll.
From my perspective it seems that within Chicago, UIC has a reputation at least nearly, if not completely, on par with UIUC. I think it's going to be a long time before the rest of the nation and world view it that way, though. Outside of the state of Illinois, UIUC is just known as "Illinois".
good points. But i would also say at this point, any true blue and orange Illini would cringe at the acronym "UIUC". The university has basically banished it from the lexicon. In fact, Illinois has gone further, I suppose, than any other state university in the nation in its branding...
it goes past the typical writing of "Illinois" in large bold letters while "Urbana Champaign" are smaller and fainter. It has gone further than any "U of __" by branding itself as "Illinois". Plain and simple. Illinois's brand consists of 9 letters....the eight that make up its name plus a giant orange and blue "I".
I do understand the confusion many people have on the flagship issue. And in some sense, it gets to be a rather murky issue.
For example: both U of C and NU are largely considered to be the best two universities in the Midwest or, more appropriately, two of the three, the other being the University of Michigan. Chicago and Northwestern are private universities; Michigan acts as if it is one. It has a built in form of autonomy that gives itself virtual power over the state. The state of Michigan pours little $$$ into the university (I believe somewhere around 7% of the total), but the university has an endowment that makes it look like Harvard or Stanford. Michigan's enrollment has been steadily out-of-state, I believe to a point where there is a 50/50 type of split.
The largest school in the state, not only in enrollment, but in the number of Michigan kids in it is MSU which, to some degree, seems to operate as the flagship in Michigan in the way the university and the state interface.
• some asked why I didn't post this on IL forum.....that one seems to get little attention and I was frankly interested in a Chicago area perspective on the issue
Do I have a bias? Probably. I am a UIC grad and yes, I do think that university would make the most sense. But I wasn't stacking the deck here by any means. In fact, I think either UIC or ISU would make a lot of sense as a second flagship. But a Chicago/Chicagoland perspective, UIC makes so much sense
Well, if it's a state flagship, then it's obviously more than a Chicago issue. Otherwise you should title it: "Does Chicago think UIC should be designated a flagship university?" I'm sure you would get wildly different answers if you asked people in, say, Bloomington, DeKalb, or Edwardsville than simply Chicago.
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Originally Posted by edsg25
As I noted, Texas is under pressure to add a third flagship to go along with UT Austin and TAMU. [/url]
Here's really the crux of the issue, in my opinion:
Texas is a highly populated, fast-growing state (and most of its cities are rapidly growing) in population and economy. Its surrounding states don't offer a slew of academically competitive options. Of course it is going to be under pressure to add more high-caliber universities to suite the expanding needs of its people.
Illinois and Chicago are basically shrinking in population, and the economics of the state and city are disasters. Illinois has several fantastic universities (private and public) that offer nearly everything at a high level but are extremely competitive to get into (UofC, NU, UIUC). Illinois also has several good next-tier universities (UIC, ISU, NIU, SIU) and several local small universities and major community college systems to meet the needs of its population. Illinois is also surrounded by states with excellent additional state universities that have more slots available than their populations warrant and offer competitive scholarships and differing perspectives that lure students in Illinois away.
There is little pressure in Illinois (and little money or support from state and local governments) to be able to do anything greater than maintaining the status quo (and even that is a struggle in some instances). Thus the need seems minimal, and the economics to make said pipe dream a reality are basically non-existent.
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