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Old 05-07-2008, 10:03 PM
 
5 posts, read 10,509 times
Reputation: 11
Avengerfire,

I think it's a little dangerous to call "case closed" on anybody before you get to know them. I think this might be the problem you have with people who are in gangs. Do you know anyone personally who is in a gang? Have you studied the sociological reasons why people join gangs? One of my friends now is an awesome guy-- has given years of his life working in non-profits, genuinely and deeply cares about the kids he works with, and if you got to know him I can't imagine you calling him a "bad person." But he's facing a lot of pressure right now to join a gang, mostly for his own safety. Some gangs do some terrible things. But that doesn't make ALL of them "bad people." Please keep an open mind.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Tri-Taylor
1,996 posts, read 3,875,545 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rlynne View Post
You do, however, need to take a long hard look at issues of gentrification, because if you're not Hispanic working class, you'll be contributing to it if you move here. It's true, it's cheap rent (I pay 220 plus utilities and I share with four others), but at what real cost to the community?
This ship has already sailed out of the port. You should learn to embrace all of your neighbors. You'll be much happier if you do.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:13 PM
 
5 posts, read 10,509 times
Reputation: 11
BRU67,

I'm not saying I dislike anyone or am not "embracing" anyone. I'm white, and I live in Pilsen, so I'm contributing to gentrification, too. I'm just saying that as we are involved, we should be talking and thinking about what is going on and what effect we're having on the community. I actually just got back from a great symposium at the University of Chicago tonight on gentrification. Gentrification has some real benefits for communities, but it also comes with the real problem of displacement for long-time residents. So I don't have answers, but I definitely think people moving in should be aware and thinking about these issues-- that's why I posed the question.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Tri-Taylor
1,996 posts, read 3,875,545 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rlynne View Post
BRU67,

I'm not saying I dislike anyone or am not "embracing" anyone. I'm white, and I live in Pilsen, so I'm contributing to gentrification, too. I'm just saying that as we are involved, we should be talking and thinking about what is going on and what effect we're having on the community. I actually just got back from a great symposium at the University of Chicago tonight on gentrification. Gentrification has some real benefits for communities, but it also comes with the real problem of displacement for long-time residents. So I don't have answers, but I definitely think people moving in should be aware and thinking about these issues-- that's why I posed the question.
That has some truth to it but unfortunately, many people who claim they are against gentrification very rarely talk about how to welcome and integrate the newcomers to the neighborhood and, instead, take a standoffish attitude towards them, like they are somehow ruining something which doesn't "belong" to them.

That prevents the newcomers (who have a lot to add to the community) from becoming involved with existing residents in a positive way and only creates tension -- tension which is futile. It creates resentment for a lot of reasons, one of them being that Pilsen doesn't "belong" to the long time residents who live there now. After all, they once displaced a group of people too. Neighborhoods seldom stay in stasis. They are always changing.

The people who are speaking out against the alleged evils of gentrification should be thinking about these issues too.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:43 PM
 
11,552 posts, read 3,868,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rlynne View Post
Not all gangbangers are bad people-- please don't give in to the stereotype.
Rylnee,

The true dye in the wool bangers are garbage. To call them animals would be an insult to animals. I'll admit that there are some kids that get involved with gangs that aren't hardcore and eventually leave the gangs. I think these kids are a minority in the gang banging world. I know there are many factors that lead people to a gang life, neglectful ghetto parents, poverty, racism, etc.. That doesn't change who they are, low lives. The cause is inconsequential.
I've met plenty of people who grew up in the ghetto who didn't succumb to drug dealing or gang banging. The reality is that people who are violent and selfish by nature gravitate towards crime. This rings true for street gangs as well as organized crime like the mob. Your sympathetic view towards them might change after your gang banging next door neighbor burglarizes your home while you are at work, like they did to my friend.

If your presence leads to these thugs being displaced from Pilsen and forced to western burbs like Cicero or Berwyn, I say "THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!"
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:08 AM
 
Location: University Village
433 posts, read 885,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rlynne View Post
BRU67,

I'm not saying I dislike anyone or am not "embracing" anyone. I'm white, and I live in Pilsen, so I'm contributing to gentrification, too. I'm just saying that as we are involved, we should be talking and thinking about what is going on and what effect we're having on the community. I actually just got back from a great symposium at the University of Chicago tonight on gentrification. Gentrification has some real benefits for communities, but it also comes with the real problem of displacement for long-time residents. So I don't have answers, but I definitely think people moving in should be aware and thinking about these issues-- that's why I posed the question.
"Assigning" geographic regions of a city to people of certain colors, nationalities, or classes is called APARTHEID. Plain and simple.

It is an evil and despicable ideology that is being peddled these days under the whitewashed name of "anti-gentrification".

The "displacement" concern is a problem on an individual level, but it is a problem that cannot be resolved in a free society. City neighborhoods change. Who do you think was in Pilsen before the Mexicans? Are you anguished and agonized because the white people who used to live there left, that their community disappeared (or destroyed, as is so often said)?

Some of us are old enough to remember porch burnings and marches in white neighborhoods protest or stop the "displacement" of white people. The "anti-displacement" crew in those days were skinheads and nazis, and they made the exact same phony arguments about preserving the community.

When it comes to the issue of racism, there is no middle ground. You either believe that neighborhoods belong or should be assigned to races or nationalities or you do not.

Since you obviously believe that Pilsen belongs to Mexicans [mod cut] I stand by that assessment until you can explain why Pilsen does not belong equally to whites, blacks, asians, aborigines, or anybody else who happens to live there.

Last edited by aragx6; 05-09-2008 at 07:41 AM.. Reason: rude, personal attack
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:47 AM
 
11,552 posts, read 3,868,765 times
Reputation: 3580
Default different scenario

Quote:
Originally Posted by NearWestSider View Post
"Assigning" geographic regions of a city to people of certain colors, nationalities, or classes is called APARTHEID. Plain and simple.

It is an evil and despicable ideology that is being peddled these days under the whitewashed name of "anti-gentrification".

The "displacement" concern is a problem on an individual level, but it is a problem that cannot be resolved in a free society. City neighborhoods change. Who do you think was in Pilsen before the Mexicans? Are you anguished and agonized because the white people who used to live there left, that their community disappeared (or destroyed, as is so often said)?

Some of us are old enough to remember porch burnings and marches in white neighborhoods protest or stop the "displacement" of white people. The "anti-displacement" crew in those days were skinheads and nazis, and they made the exact same phony arguments about preserving the community.

When it comes to the issue of racism, there is no middle ground. You either believe that neighborhoods belong or should be assigned to races or nationalities or you do not.

Since you obviously believe that Pilsen belongs to Mexicans [mod cut] I stand by that assessment until you can explain why Pilsen does not belong equally to whites, blacks, asians, aborigines, or anybody else who happens to live there.
I don't think it's a question of what ethnicity a neighborhood belongs to, I think ultimately it's a matter of displacement. I've never heard of white neighborhoods in which groups of white people have been displaced in any Chicago neighborhood. White flight is not the same as displacement. Those residents choose to leave by their own accord. Pilsen was Czech many years ago. The Czech's voluntarily migrated Little Village, than Cicero, than Berwyn, and so on. The displacement is usually, though not always, associated with economics.

Let's also not forgot that some of the people who are displaced in gentrifying neighborhoods happen to be struggling artists as well. Even though the displacement is rooted in economics, it sometimes has a racial component. I've read articles in which upper middle income black and hispanic professionals living in Wicker Park have felt pressured to leave the area.

Ultimately my point is that people who have left areas previously predominately white such as Marquette Park, and most of the Southwest Side have done so voluntarilyi. Where as minorities who have left Wicker Park, West Town, Logan Square have been done so against their wishes.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:07 PM
 
46 posts, read 100,690 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savoir Faire View Post
Ultimately my point is that people who have left areas previously predominately white such as Marquette Park, and most of the Southwest Side have done so voluntarilyi. Where as minorities who have left Wicker Park, West Town, Logan Square have been done so against their wishes.
You're saying the minorities were forced out? Or did they decide they didn't want to pay higher rents, just like white people decided they didn't want to live in a high crime neighborhood? What about the minorities that own their homes in those neighborhoods? How were they "forced out"?
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Volker, Kansas City, MO
12,062 posts, read 17,842,434 times
Reputation: 3597
I'm not sure you've ever been in this position, but when your rent goes up hundreds of dollars over the course of a few years and you can't pay your bills there's very little decision made. You do what you have to in order to survive.
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,704,886 times
Reputation: 770
Default Property Taxes, let's not forget those

Owners also experience rising property taxes which force many long-term owners out. Imagine how the poor feel now that they own their place free and clear but property taxes have quadrupled and they can no longer afford to live there, despite having no mortgage balance.

I don't think race has much at all to do with gentrification. In Wicker Park, Bucktown, Logan Square if you have money to pay higher rents or to own with higher mortgage and tax payments you can stay. I have not heard of affluent blacks or latinos being forced out.

When white flight happened, many of these areas were going downhill. Rents were not increasing, nor were property taxes. With gentrification, you have people of all races (not just whites) moving into areas that are becoming more expensive to live in, forcing up rents and property taxes. It simply becomes more expensive to live in areas as they gentrify whether you are an owner or a renter.

Fine,

Unfortunately minorities who own their homes can be forced out due to higher property taxes.

I don't think it is a race thing as much as an economics thing though with many of these minorities being forced out not being high income folks.
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