Is the Southside really that bad? (Chicago, Kenilworth: apartment, construction, college)

[ajolotl]

I'm in my 40's and over the past 25 years of living in Hyde Park my own racial attitudes have changed considerably. In the early 80's in Hyde Park there was much more racial tension. I remember constantly being harassed and mocked by local teenagers and developing a horrible impression of the incredibly uncivilized "neighborhood people". Since then the racial composition hasn't changed much but the class structure has -- many more affluent blacks in the area and far less of a sense or fear of white versus black. I realized in retrospect that the issues were really socio-economic and not racial, and were no different from what friends of mine experienced in other white-on-white town-gown strife in smaller liberal arts schools. I don't think my parents had this latter experience of living in a truly racially diverse neighborhood, so their views never really changed much.

[Humboldt1]

It is more about socioeconomics than anything else. Sometimes we mistaken see racial differences when it has more to do with the haves and the have nots.

This, however, does not explain why hispanics have been more successful as a whole than blacks. Perhaps hispanics who come here are the most motivated than those who stay in their native countries and instill these values in their children. Good parents lead to successful children. It is much more difficult for people with bad parents to succeed, though some do.

Experience, not age, has most to do with racial attitudes. My parents are probably less negative towards ghetto blacks than me as they have not experienced what I have. The truth is I as a white person probably know more about ghetto blacks and gangbangers than most black posters on here because of what I have experienced. This does not mean I think all black people are bad. On the contrary, I assume all people are good until they give me a reason to think differently. Unfortunately, this way of thinking has led me to be burnt numerous times (robbed, beaten, almost killed, harrassed, and cheated). As all of these experiences have come from ghetto blacks and a black guy in palatine (definitely not ghetto) it is hard to look for the good in a group of people that have done me so wrong.

To be fair, this past weekend, a hispanic man stole my laptop and broke my car window. This has been my only negative experience with hispanics.

I do have a number of black friends and it should be noted that my boss is a black female (she got her MBA and undergrad from Northwestern so not exactly ghetto black). Her boss is a black as well, so its not like the only black people I know are ghetto. My lifting partner at the gym is also black and I am in the process of helping get him a job with my bank.

I may be jaded from past experiences but even I can concede with the right environment those who wronged me would have turned out decent human beings most likely.

I don't know exactly how to go about promoting that "right" environment but it certainly starts at home. At best I may be able to help a few families. Others, particularly those who are from these challenged neighborhoods, need to step up to the plate and help take back their streets from the thigs, pushers, and druggies that are there now.

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

This, however, does not explain why hispanics have been more successful as a whole than blacks. Perhaps hispanics who come here are the most motivated than those who stay in their native countries and instill these values in their children. Good parents lead to successful children. It is much more difficult for people with bad parents to succeed, though some do.

Hispanics share a very similar immigrant experience with white Americans, at least the whites from places like Chicago. That is one of the primary reasons they integrate more succesfully into society here, not to mention that overt RACIAL prejudice is a little harder to rationalize with people who are either part or totally Spanish. They also have the advantage that the assimilation of the Italians paved the way towards an acceptance of Latin culture in this society.

This is not to say it has been easy or that things have been rosy, but the fact is their experience in the U.S. has been closer to what the Irish or Italians encountered than it has been to what African Americans encountered.

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

...This is not to say it has been easy or that things have been rosy, but the fact is their experience in the U.S. has been closer to what the Irish or Italians encountered than it has been to what African Americans encountered.

In many parts of the United States in the mid-late 1800's to 1920's the fact of the matter is when an employer was faced with the option of hiring a Black man or an Irishman, the Black man was hired before an Irishman was.

[ManheimMadman]

Regarding these sliding South Side neighborhoods, what is keeping some of it's good residents from getting a neighborhood watch team together, or going to CAPS meetings or something else like that? There have got to be some holdouts who truly care, no?

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

In many parts of the United States in the mid-late 1800's to 1920's the fact of the matter is when an employer was faced with the option of hiring a Black man or an Irishman, the Black man was hired before an Irishman was.

Which is non sequitor to the point I was trying to make, which is that the the Hispanic immigrant experience in Chicago more closely resembles that of Europeans than African Americans. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

And seeing as how in the south in the mid-1800's, many blacks were still slaves, I can see how a plantation owner might prefer to have slaves picking his cotton than freemen.

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by ManheimMadman

Regarding these sliding South Side neighborhoods, what is keeping some of it's good residents from getting a neighborhood watch team together, or going to CAPS meetings or something else like that? There have got to be some holdouts who truly care, no?

There are, and they are doing just that, but they are being overwhelmed by the newcomers, and many of whom are total losers.

This is one of the consequences of tearing down the projects. The thugs are regrouping in places like Englewood and South Shore, and they are block by block driving out many of the long-time residents.

[Iamme73]

It is a shame you are so ignorant yourself. You are part of the problem not the solution.



Well, I can't say I am surprised by that response.
Here is little lesson, by responding to my post in the manner in which you did, you IDENTIFIED yourself as being EXACTLY who I was referring to.

See, it is one thing to read a post and disagree with the post and respond on that basis, but your post neither disagrees with mine or ADDS anything.

It is LIKE you felt my words TAGGED YOU as an ignorant person. So your only response was to write "I am not ignorant you are the one who is ignorant" back to me.

I wrote VERY specific things. If you want to respond to my actual post and challenge it, be my guest, but other than that GET better at trying to insult someone.

[Iamme73]

Crime stats don't lie. If I see that Greater Grand Crossing has 13 murders in the last six months, Englewood has 11, and South Shore has 11...guess what? "War Zone", while somewhat harsh, may sum it up.

Did I write crime stats LIE?
Nah, I wrote someone saying a PLACE they have NEVER been is a WAR ZONE is NONSENSE.

I read another poster on here speak about Chatham and how he or she felt it was "safe" until they saw some crime stats.

This is what I mean, a PLACE that BEFORE this poster knew what the crime stats were the poster FELT comfortable going there.
COULD it be that crime stats DON'T tell all there is to a place, especially if you have NEVER LIVED there, let alone visited?

It is one thing to write on the basis of these crime stats I wouldn't feel comfortable living someplace, but a WHOLE nother to assume you have ANY IDEA what it is like to live there and what the people who live there are like.

There are no insults being cast, just facts.

That is HILARIOUS. If you can read through this thread and read only objective STATS being quoted and no racial insults......... HAHAHAHA

Nobody needs to live in these areas to know that it sucks.

You are funny.
SURE you do. Unless you will cling to the silly notion that you can know what a place is like NEVER having been there.
Is that your position?

I certainly don't want to be in a community that one lives in fear of being murdered like the other 13, but if you want to- go ahead.

How would you know how people you have NEVER MET feel about a PLACE you have never been.
Oh I get it you read something somewhere one time about blah, blah, blah.

No offense, but you are another that didn't respond to much of what I wrote.
If you want to respond to the substance of my post instead of YOUR fantasies........

[ManheimMadman]

Well, if it pleases you- I would not feel comfortable living in a place where there have been that many murders committed. I would like to understand why you would feel this way. If you'd be so inclined, please tell me what these residents are thinking.

Based on what you're saying, it seems that you are angry that although many of us haven't been to some of these neighborhoods, we have no right to comment. However, what if we were to say, "these are the crime stats, and based on such things, I would not wish to live here." Would this be fair?

Your premise is that empirical data does not always tell the whole story, yes? If so, what are some of the things that let these people NOT live in fear?