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Old 07-10-2008, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Oak Park, IL
5,152 posts, read 7,851,502 times
Reputation: 3152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post
For Washington University I was awarded an academic scholarship. I did not get any loans or grants.

It was $28,000 per year when I attended though it might be $50,000 now.

I know alot of people who had far less than me financials and family-wise growing up who are still successes.

If you work hard enough, you can overcome just about anything. For those who aren't willing to work hard to get ahead I don't have time for such people.
To a certain extent, I agree with you. Even in the worst environments, some kids will survive and even thrive. These are the outliers, the few who are two and three standard deviations from the mean.

However, you've got to admit that environment has a tremendous effect on how kids will turn out. Consider tihs thought experiment. If you cloned yourself and put one hundred clones of you in the ghetto without a stable family, no good role models, and poor educational opportunities, how many of your clones would succeed in life versus the control group of one hundred of your clones put into your real childhood life on an Indiana farm. I'd argue that there would be a statistically significant difference in outcomes.

Unfortunately, children don't get to choose their parents, so its hard to blame them for their upbringing. This doesn't mean we excuse criminality. An effective legal system can reduce crime in an of itself. However, even better would be an effective legal system combined with effective social intervention at an early age to head off problems before they develop. How to do this successfully, unfortunately, isn't straightforward or uncontroversial.

 
Old 07-10-2008, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Illinois
107 posts, read 214,522 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post
If you work hard enough, you can overcome just about anything. For those who aren't willing to work hard to get ahead I don't have time for such people.
Indians come here with $10 in their pockets, and in 10 years they own a gas station or quickee mart. There is no excuse for whole generations, areas, populations etc. to be lazy and drag the city down. This is why taxes are so high in Chicago today; the north side feeds the south side. I also support population control.
 
Old 07-10-2008, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,794,145 times
Reputation: 773
Default Event Horizon

I agree that Indians work hard and accomplish much in their short time here but even I will admit they have many benefits others do not. Often times, they have education (engineering and medical degrees) or come from families that already have businesses in India. They are very entrepenuerial for which I applaud them.

I bank a number of Indian businessmen and have seen their success first hand. They are masters of the franchises such as gas stations and dunkin donuts for a reason.

I use the Mexican example as they tend to be less educated, have a language barrier and are often coming from rural backgrounds with little in the way of job skills other than the ability to work hard and learn quickly.

People who can afford a plane ticket here, whether they be from Europe or South Asia, generally have an advantage over those who are forced to walk across the border or work with a coyote to get here.

It is a misconception to think that the north side pays for the south side. The south side may be more industrialized but lets not forget about the heavy industries in places such as Bedford Park and Summit or Worth. There are some big-time employers on the south side that pay plenty in taxes, so I would not say the north side pays for the south side. There are also some very nice far south side neighborhoods (Orland Park, Homer Glen, LaGrange, Westchester, Burr Ridge, Hinsdale, Hyde Park, Kenwood, Beverly). The north side is just more residential and less industrial, which doesn't make it any better or worse than the south side, though certainly some (but not all) of the worst areas in Chicago are in some of the south side neighborhoods.
 
Old 07-10-2008, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Around Chicago
859 posts, read 1,846,413 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
There is no excuse for whole generations, areas, populations etc. to be lazy and drag the city down. This is why taxes are so high in Chicago today; the north side feeds the south side.
How far south have you been in this city?
 
Old 07-10-2008, 05:38 PM
 
50 posts, read 73,593 times
Reputation: 24
LOL. Something tells me Event Horizon hasn't been too far.

Anyway, as one of these "black people" some of you armchair sociologists keep bleating about, let's be clear: There are hundreds of predominantly black communities on the southside that run the socioeconomic gamut, from Pill Hill to Chatham to Bronzeville. And contrary to popular belief, not all of us are shooting each other or sucking from the government teat! A vast majority of us actually work for a living, and our taxes go to the same bureaucratic bullcrap our northside brethren pay for. But then it's much easier to demonize an entire race of people than to pay attention in civics class. So don't blame Quaneisha for the tax surge; blame Mayor Daley. Or Todd Stroger.

Also? Having recently moved from a northside neighborhood to the southside after seven years? I can honestly say that I feel a lot safer HERE, thanks.
 
Old 07-10-2008, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Chicago
15,589 posts, read 12,277,694 times
Reputation: 1761
Quote:
Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
Indians come here with $10 in their pockets, and in 10 years they own a gas station or quickee mart...
The goverment has special loans and grants to start a business for legal immigrants that nature born Americans and Illegals cannot receive.
 
Old 07-10-2008, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Illinois
107 posts, read 214,522 times
Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post

People who can afford a plane ticket here, whether they be from Europe or South Asia, generally have an advantage over those who are forced to walk across the border or work with a coyote to get here.

Good point. The EU is having as big of a problem with border crossings as the US. The plane ticket is another big thing, it shows that they come here with something. As a question, do you think that most people who come here with only a shirt on their back will take more from the system than they will ever contribute? As opposed to highly educated and skilled people coming by the 747-load from India and who bring untold human capital?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post

Often times, they have education (engineering and medical degrees) or come from families that already have businesses in India. They are very entrepenuerial for which I applaud them.
It doesnt take an engineering or medical degree to run a franchise or gas station. There is no educational benchmark that you need to attain to start your own business. Even though the halls of engineering schools are becoming predominantly Indian, you see their success every time you turn the corner, and this success is something that could be shared by members of impoverished southside communities. The Indians were merely filling a void that was left empty by incompitence and a lack of discipline.

That being said, there is no greater natural advantage to success in this country greater than the advantage of being born here. I know some people would like to say "yea but...", cultural disadvantages, poor planning, a sense of worthlessness, a cycle of poverty, and being a product of a corrupt environment is to blame. These are nothing but excuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humboldt1 View Post

It is a misconception to think that the north side pays for the south side. The south side may be more industrialized but lets not forget about the heavy industries in places such as Bedford Park and Summit or Worth. There are some big-time employers on the south side that pay plenty in taxes, so I would not say the north side pays for the south side. There are also some very nice far south side neighborhoods (Orland Park, Homer Glen, LaGrange, Westchester, Burr Ridge, Hinsdale, Hyde Park, Kenwood, Beverly). The north side is just more residential and less industrial, which doesn't make it any better or worse than the south side, though certainly some (but not all) of the worst areas in Chicago are in some of the south side neighborhoods.
How is that a misconception? There is no way that the dead and dying industrial base on the southside by any means pays for its share of the city's expenses.


PetulantSoup .... here is a link for an up to date crime database. Look up Bronzeville. I didn't see any homicides, but there were 50 crimes reported in one (1) day in Bronzeville. I don't see how why Bronzeville is some kind of pillar of success down there, there are a lot of neat old brick buildings, but I wouldn't call that very safe.

http://chicago.everyblock.com/crime/locations/neighborhoods/
 
Old 07-10-2008, 08:21 PM
 
Location: South Side
3,554 posts, read 6,357,065 times
Reputation: 1173
Quote:
Originally Posted by EventHorizon View Post
I don't see how why Bronzeville is some kind of pillar of success down there, there are a lot of neat old brick buildings, but I wouldn't call that very safe.
Welll, what do the returning professionals, new moves and the folks who never left Bronzeville think about it? I know people in all three categories who live in the area. Isn't that a little paternalistic to tell residents of other areas what they should think of their neighborhoods? They're not crazy, after all. Prick 'em and they bleed.

Do you ever wonder why equatorial or Arctic people never really leave their home areas? Maybe it suits them just fine.

Perhaps we could gauge success by the area's continued attractiveness to new and old residents. If people are fleeing a place and no one is moving in, the neighborhood would soon cease to exist. That's not what's happening in Bronzeville.
 
Old 07-10-2008, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Humboldt Park, Chicago
2,338 posts, read 4,794,145 times
Reputation: 773
Default immigrants

Event Horizon,

You make some valid points regarding human capital of immigrants. With regards to those who come here illegally (some are from planes with expired visas but most are from latin america, mostly mexico). These illegal immigrants are certainly a drain on the system as they get free health care for them and their children (generally born here). I would argue that this is a much better situation than those who are born here and drawn govt benefits and do not work as virtually all of the immigrants are working just to provide food for them and their kids. Some illegals get food stamps, some do not as they fear deportation and the govt in general.

If I had my choice between a welfare recipient and an illegal who works I would take the illegal anyday.

Petulent Soup,

I paid attention in civics and have actually taken urban sociology courses in college. My mother has a masters in sociology and worked as a social worker in Gary in the 60s and 70s. I just see things differently than you. Living in Humboldt Park, right on the edge of gentrifying areas and ghetto I am hardly an armchair sociologist.

I agree with about the south side not being so bad in some parts and having a significant tax base, even with declines in manufacturing.

Where did you live for 7 years and where do you live now? You said you felt safer now on the south side.
 
Old 07-11-2008, 06:34 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 3,505,135 times
Reputation: 1141
No, it's really not that safe:

Channel 2 is tracking all the shootings in the city this summer, and it's pretty depressing, especially if you live on the south side. There were a few in Rogers Park, one in Uptown, a couple others scattered about on the North Side. The northwest side bungalow belt has none, while the Southwest Side bungalow belt has had a few. On the South Side, though, there is hardly a square mile without at least a couple of shootings.

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