White flight from SW side (Chicago, Lena: median income, standard of living, price)

[Sleepy09]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

Now we have an orator that will make Aristotle weep. I feel so lucky.

Lucky? Try blessed.

I'm an awesome role model, and I'm glad you want to be like me when you grow up.

*takes a drink of Coke*

Hey, kid!

*throws debate team jersey at you*

[Avengerfire]

Originally Posted by brainiac138

actually, the "memory" of No Irish Need Apply signs is all been debunked...

...Richard Jensen from the History Department at UIC has written about this mistaken victimization...

He can go sit on a 16-inch softball bat.

[skyeINIL]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

He can go sit on a 16-inch softball bat.

Did he say something that you didn't agree with or something that wasn't true?

[meatpuff]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

I mean, the corollary between "non white" and "neighborhood standards going down hill"

Did you mean "correlation"?

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

Whenever I've had this discussion, it's usually in the context of the East Side and Hegewisch neighborhoods, that pretty much went off the 'standard of living' cliff in the past 10 years as a result of racial balances skewing (predominantly Hispanic, but with an ever increasing low-income black presence), stemming from certain real estate valuation metrics being generally favorable to increased Section 8 housing in those areas, compounded by an aging real estate stock, an aging white population that was leaving or dying off, etc .

Um.

Have you been to the East Side or Hegewisch neighborhoods in the past ten years? They seem fine, even pretty nice to me. My uncle who lives there and many others have doubts about the future, and just what the Hispanic influx will mean for the character of the neighborhood. But as for today, it's fine. It's no Lincoln Park, but it is a fine working/middle class white/Hispanic enclave. I would live there, if I didn't have to worry about schools and it was convenient to my job. I don't know what it was like ten years ago there, but it fell off no "standard of living cliff" unless it was less like a cliff and more like a stair step.

We see East Side and Hegewisch very differently. You see them as a failure. I see them as a success, at least for the present. They are an island of livable middle-class neighborhoods surrounded by a sea of crap. That whole segment of Chicagoland used to be pleasant, middle class neighborhoods. Now you cannot drive in any direction from there to reach another livable spot unless you drive at least eight miles (maybe less if you like Blue Island or Hammond).

Heck, Wikipedia says the median income in East Side was higher in 2000 than that in Beverly, Hyde Park and Mount Greenwood! And it fell off the "standard of living cliff" ten years ago??

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by brainiac138

actually, the "memory" of No Irish Need Apply signs is all been debunked. There were very few, if any NINA signs in the United States, and really occurred in England after riots or other forms of strife.

Richard Jensen from the History Department at UIC has written about this mistaken victimization.

Check it out here.
Richard J. Jensen - "No Irish Need Apply": A Myth of Victimization - Journal of Social History 36:2

"[SIZE=3]An electronic search of all the text of the several hundred thousand pages of magazines and books online at Library of Congress, Cornell University Library and the University of Michigan Library, and complete runs of The New York Times and The Nation, turned up about a dozen uses of NINA. 17 The complete text of New York Times is searchable from 1851 through 1923. Although the optical character recognition is not perfect (some microfilmed pages are blurry), it captures most of the text. "

his problem is these signs went up on fences, on doors, etc. even worse "research" skills than the guy who wrote "How the Irish Became White."
[/SIZE]

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by skyeINIL

Did he say something that you didn't agree with or something that wasn't true?

The idea that Irish people didn't suffer widescale discrimination is so ignorant it doesn't deserve much serious attention. To claim that if one particular expression of this doesn't appear in on-line forms means it didn't exist (which was not stated, but certainly implied), is comical.

Just remember that the Irish were brought to Chicago to dig the canal ditches because they were considered expendable, less valuable and less skilled than African slaves from the South.

Once you can wrap your head around that, the rest will follow.

[promis1]

Originally Posted by Manigault

For a second I thought you were talking about Lenard Clark, a black kid beaten up by white thugs on the south side. But, I guess you may recall that the only hate crime case which went to the Supreme Court was about some black kids beating up white kids?

You're painting with too broad a brush. However, from what I have seen, that seems to be a habit with you.

Actually the white kids that were convicted in the lenard clark beating in bridgeport were given hate crimes. And that story was played across the nation , from cnn news to every station. But a white kid gets beat up by 3 black kids that state the white kid looked goofy, it never made it past the sun times. Amazing, how our liberal media works.

[PokerPlayer1]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

This forum has got be the most accomplished collection of talent in the western hemisphere. Criticize anyone and there is no end to their list of talents and physical prowess. Even PP owns a collection of books bigger than a library and has an investment portfolio more cleverly managed than Warren Buffet. Far from being ugly and feeble, he is 6-04, 220 of mostly solid muscle, and was a D1 athlete of some sort in college, just like pretty much everyone else. Now we have an orator that will make Aristotle weep. I feel so lucky.

You seem to have developed a bit of an inferiority complex.
Very much a "you problem" (and I am 6'3 )
Let me know if you want to wager actual money on anything I've said. You can usually find me at Horseshoe Hammond on weekdays.

[PokerPlayer1]

Originally Posted by meatpuff

Um.

Have you been to the East Side or Hegewisch neighborhoods in the past ten years?

Does living there three to four days a week count? It's an easy commute to my 'work' at the Casino and I have a great cash-on-the-barrel landlord who rents dirt cheap. No way in hell I would ever buy there and let downtown get a decent, legal poker game going and I'll have nothing more to do with the place.

They seem fine, even pretty nice to me. My uncle who lives there and many others have doubts about the future, and just what the Hispanic influx will mean for the character of the neighborhood. But as for today, it's fine. It's no Lincoln Park, but it is a fine working/middle class white/Hispanic enclave. I would live there, if I didn't have to worry about schools and it was convenient to my job. I don't know what it was like ten years ago there, but it fell off no "standard of living cliff" unless it was less like a cliff and more like a stair step.

We see East Side and Hegewisch very differently. You see them as a failure. I see them as a success, at least for the present. They are an island of livable middle-class neighborhoods surrounded by a sea of crap. That whole segment of Chicagoland used to be pleasant, middle class neighborhoods. Now you cannot drive in any direction from there to reach another livable spot unless you drive at least eight miles (maybe less if you like Blue Island or Hammond).

Heck, Wikipedia says the median income in East Side was higher in 2000 than that in Beverly, Hyde Park and Mount Greenwood! And it fell off the "standard of living cliff" ten years ago??

LOL!
Your knowledge of what Hegewisch and East Side were 10 years ago compared to today isn't exactly an accurate; very much the sort of opinion held by someone who occasionally visits, but has no idea what the neighborhood really is, particularly compared to what it was. The closing of Alligator Gardens brought the first black Sec8 wave to the lower portion of the neighborhood. Good old slumlord Bob W. made sure it kept up, converting the lower portions into a Section 8 Guadalajara. Since you're a Wikipedia man (LOL!), you will notice that the claim is made re: the racial dynamics have changed markedly since the last census, which is totally true based on what I've seen.

I think the upper parts of Hegewisch- up by the park, the library, etc- have held out much better, but the lower portion by the train, lumber mill and on Brandon (hooray for the new blue light camera! They must've put it there by accident, according to your rosy view) are turning/have turned into a ghetto.

Don't even get me started on East Side. East Side is what Hegewisch will be in 10 more years. I would wager my net worth on it happening.

I agree that Hegewisch isn't an outright horrible place to live at present- it's actually a good, short term deal if you're somehow obliged to technically live in the city yet want a more suburban feel- but it's qualitative standard of living has declined markedly and its future is a total short. The people who seem to put the most stock in it are outsiders who usually start off their sentence with "My grandma lives there- I visit a couple times a year and it doesn't seem that bad..."

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by promis1

Actually the white kids that were convicted in the lenard clark beating in bridgeport were given hate crimes. And that story was played across the nation , from cnn news to every station. But a white kid gets beat up by 3 black kids that state the white kid looked goofy, it never made it past the sun times. Amazing, how our liberal media works.

The problem which you and other 'reverse discrimination, double standard, we're victims' whiners have is inputting the fact that not every fight between black and white combatants is a racial incident. And the kid who got beat up for being goofy was a story which made it past the Sun-Times. The kid was understanding about the incident and fortunately not badly hurt. He dealt with it a lot better than his mom did.

Now if I, a person who does not read the Sun-Times, am familiar with the incident, perhaps it was not a liberal media suppressing the story.

Getting beat up because you look goofy can involve a victim of the same race or a different race. I myself was probably on the receiving end of one of those beatings. But that don't make it a racially motivated hate crime. That's a lot different than beating up a kid for being in the wrong neighborhood. And young Mr. Clark got brain damage, unlike the white youth.

But all of this is off topic. Did you find a stable, affluent, black neighborhood yet?