White flight from SW side (Chicago, Oak Lawn: gated, pierogi, zoning)

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

It does stretch the imagination to envision Manigault in a "street fight".

Since I'm about 60 my wife and kids gave me the strangest looks.

[meatpuff]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

Please don't do that thing where you parse posts down into sentence-by-sentence quid-pro-quo replies. It's very "internet circa 1999" and has since been widely recognized as being totally counter-productive to dialog.

As a reader, I prefer it this way. Readers aren't forced to wade through your entire post that I quoted. They can just see the bit I'm responding to and scroll up to see the rest.

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

Regarding the standard of living declining due to racial dynamics, do you really need me to explain that?
...
What happened is that Hegewisch and East Side- largely white and safe- became largely Hispanic with an increasing black presence. As a result, various standard-of-living "things" that are associated with 'influxing' blacks and Hispanics (who tend to represent lower income levels as a matter of default rather than anomaly) started to occur in Hegewisch. Blight, crime, a general decline in overall safety- things started happening that never happened before, like a cop getting shot, regularly seeing drug dealers on the Pudgys end of town, a blue light camera...

Frankly, yes. I admit I don't spend a lot of time there, but my uncle is quite involved with the community and seems to think the Hispanics in East Side are mostly alright. Now in the pattern of Chicagoland-style white flight, the first wave usually is alright. But this is no longer the first wave. East Side is getting to be almost equally white and Hispanic.

In recent years, we have had exceptions to the "minorities move in and ruin everything" mode. I.e. there are some majority minority (unfortunate choice of phrase) suburbs and neighborhoods that are perfectly alright. Berwyn and West Chicago are close to majority Hispanic and most sections are nice. They are still the exception, but in latter-day white flight this type of thing is happening more and more.

South Side/suburbs white flight has been a pattern that has been repeated particularly closely. Whites out, blacks in, the community goes down the toilet, with only one or two exceptions. But here we have Hispanics moving in on the South Side, surrounded everywhere by blacks, and at quite a late and enlightened date. It's such a big break from the well-learned pattern of South Side white flight that I wouldn't be shocked to see another exception pop up.

But I admit some of the anecdotes you're relaying are not good signs. And race aside, it's a strange area of town to see a middle-class enclave survive. We'll see.

[PokerPlayer1]

The Ford Plant, the NW Indiana Steel Industry (as well as whatever smattering of Southside city industry remains) and the necessity for blue collar city workers to live in the city limits has pretty much been the saving grace for Hegewisch thus far. The first two are in massive decline and the latter- the low/middle income white city workers- seem to be targeting other areas.

Also, as un-PC as it is to say it, lower income Hispanics ain't exactly the same thing as lower income blacks... I won't get any further into that because it's one of those realities we aren't supposed to talk about, but fortunately for Hegewisch, they're on the receiving end of the 'best possible bad scenario' as far as drastic ethnic changes in any given neighborhood. Well, scratch that. I guess Asians would technically be the "best case scenario" there... but the Hispanics in Hegewisch, if you can hold your nose and ignore the Section 8'ers, are largely working class and good folk.

[meatpuff]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

The Ford Plant, the NW Indiana Steel Industry (as well as whatever smattering of Southside city industry remains) and the necessity for blue collar city workers to live in the city limits has pretty much been the saving grace for Hegewisch thus far. The first two are in massive decline and the latter- the low/middle income white city workers- seem to be targeting other areas.

Also, as un-PC as it is to say it, lower income Hispanics ain't exactly the same thing as lower income blacks... I mean, if anyone had to chose between one and the other, well, I think we all know who gets the first pick there.

Yeah, I think you paint a good picture of the situation here. Although there is some hope the "massive decline" items will improve with the economy. After all, steel was flying high before the economy turned, and Ford will survive, and inevitably someday people will have to start buying cars again. Let us hope.

Yeah, city workers are choosing elsewhere, but as the far SW side is also sliding downward I wonder where else they are gonna go, anywhere south. Those with family and roots on the south side tend not to switch over to the "city worker neighborhoods" north, which are more than 25 miles away.

Agree the foothold of low income blacks causes more concern than the general Hispanic influx.

I guess we largely agree on the area, I just see a lot of "ballast" that will cause things to change more slowly there and not be a textbook Chicago white flight. But I think we both agree it will take a heroic, unlikely effort if the neighborhoods are to outlast all the forces pushing them down.

[PokerPlayer1]

We were in Whiting, IN the other day for Garage-Mahal (undoubtably the SICKEST community garage sale I've ever been to. Spent about $100 in total and probably got out of there with $1K worth of loot. I'm not kidding. It's like we discovered a lost tribe of garage-sale Amazonians who had yet to be touched by the far-reaches of ebay civilization... So, so awesome.). While there, we met a few East Side retreat'ees. I have some in-laws who moved from the SE Side to Schererville, Indiana. Based on the people I talk to in Hegewisch, it seems that Indiana is getting a lot of the SE side flight, mainly for tax purposes. Obviously, Hammond is going to the dogs and Gary has already done-gone, but places like Munster, Whiting, etc seem to really be catching a lot of the southside retreat.

[otters21]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

We were in Whiting, IN the other day for Garage-Mahal (undoubtably the SICKEST community garage sale I've ever been to. Spent about $100 in total and probably got out of there with $1K worth of loot. I'm not kidding. It's like we discovered a lost tribe of garage-sale Amazonians who had yet to be touched by the far-reaches of ebay civilization... So, so awesome.). While there, we met a few East Side retreat'ees. I have some in-laws who moved from the SE Side to Schererville, Indiana. Based on the people I talk to in Hegewisch, it seems that Indiana is getting a lot of the SE side flight, mainly for tax purposes. Obviously, Hammond is going to the dogs and Gary has already done-gone, but places like Munster, Whiting, etc seem to really be catching a lot of the southside retreat.

White or middle class needs to be curtailed especially in todays economy. With the auto industry tanking it is going to be tougher to live in car oriented exurbs ,and to add insult to injury gas prices are starting to soar again. Blue coller Joe and his family is not going to afford to " pull their suitcases out of the closet". pack up and flee. White flight is NOT the answer with this economy. SE Chicago residents need to take a stand to make sure their community survives, not flee to such places like Munster and Whiting where public transit is virtually non existant.

[Drover]

Tell you what, why don't you move down there and take a stand instead of telling other people what they need to do?

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by Drover

Tell you what, why don't you move down there and take a stand instead of telling other people what they need to do?

=

Finally stated! Now you understand why I live on the south side.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by Manigault

=

Finally stated! Now you understand why I live on the south side.

Everyone's gotta do their thing. But "take a stand" is a tough sell in Eastside and Hegewisch when these are ho-hum neighborhoods to begin with and way cheaper taxes and otherwise similar cost of living are 400 yards away in Indiana. Especially when part of the "take a stand" justification is public transit access, as if that part of town is particularly well-served by public transportation. You can take the South Shore as easily from East Chicago as from Hegewisch.

[otters21]

Originally Posted by Drover

Tell you what, why don't you move down there and take a stand instead of telling other people what they need to do?

Been there, done that -there is a success story in my neighborhood on the north side of Columbus Ohio -It was declining in the early 2000s and since we moved there in 2006 it has IMPROVED big time! People have took a stand. NO, I AM NOT TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO TO DO ( I do not appreciate the insinuations- it is their own choice) but in todays economy many blue collar Joe's cannot afford to give into white or middle class flight into car oriented far out suburbs or exurbs. Face it, gas prices are soaring and the auto industry is not doing so well. I have no desire to fight or argue but IMHO white or middle flight is not the answer in todays economy. However you are entitled to your own opinion. By the way my neighborhood was alot like SE Chicago and since the neighbors took a stand it has gotten much better. Hopefully the same will happen on the SE side of Chicago. However I do have a question, out of curiousity - how is the public transit access and the housing stock in Hegewisch and the SE side of Chicago? If public transit is not too good and housing stock being ho-hum, I have to agree that maybe taking a stand could a hard sell in that area. Walkable, affordable , safe areas with good public transit and access to shops,bars and restaurants etc are in great need for the average blue collar Joe.