White flight from SW side (Chicago, Melrose Park: prices, gas, park)

[Chicagoland60426]

Originally Posted by meatpuff

As a reader, I prefer it this way. Readers aren't forced to wade through your entire post that I quoted. They can just see the bit I'm responding to and scroll up to see the rest.



Frankly, yes. I admit I don't spend a lot of time there, but my uncle is quite involved with the community and seems to think the Hispanics in East Side are mostly alright. Now in the pattern of Chicagoland-style white flight, the first wave usually is alright. But this is no longer the first wave. East Side is getting to be almost equally white and Hispanic.

In recent years, we have had exceptions to the "minorities move in and ruin everything" mode. I.e. there are some majority minority (unfortunate choice of phrase) suburbs and neighborhoods that are perfectly alright. Berwyn and West Chicago are close to majority Hispanic and most sections are nice. They are still the exception, but in latter-day white flight this type of thing is happening more and more.

South Side/suburbs white flight has been a pattern that has been repeated particularly closely. Whites out, blacks in, the community goes down the toilet, with only one or two exceptions. But here we have Hispanics moving in on the South Side, surrounded everywhere by blacks, and at quite a late and enlightened date. It's such a big break from the well-learned pattern of South Side white flight that I wouldn't be shocked to see another exception pop up.

But I admit some of the anecdotes you're relaying are not good signs. And race aside, it's a strange area of town to see a middle-class enclave survive. We'll see.

Actually according to 2000 census, Eastside is 57% Hispanic.
East Side, Chicago: Information from Answers.com

Suburbs like South Holland is still decent being a majority middle class black suburb now. Then you have Flossmoor that survived the white flight and is 31% black and upper middle class. But the ironic thing is most of the schools are over 50% black now, including H-F high school. So what is really driving whites away? It can't be social incomes, because Flossmoor is still upper middle class. It makes you wonder

[ajolotl]

I'm not from this country originally so I think I have somewhat of a fresh perspective. This is a very progressive and merit-based society (vs. Latin America e.g. where pedigree means everything, real corruption is the norm and nothing gets done). Minorities who are talented can do extremely well for themselves here and will be respected. However, many white people are *really* uncomfortable just rubbing shoulders with the random black person on the street, and of course even moreso actually living near them. The weird thing is that no one can say this out loud, so they talk all sorts of nonsense in public and then totally change their tune behind closed doors. It's actually kind of creepy at times.

Of course there are many exceptions, so please don't reply about how open minded you are. I'm speaking statistically. I'm also not saying that other more valid issues don't play in -- such as the revered crime rate, the fear of white flight and lower class minorities moving in, etc. I think in addition to those things many white people here just aren't used to and don't have a taste for living near blacks, regardless of their social class. I also think that this would change as integrated neighborhoods become more of the norm and people of similar social standing learn that they are not really different from each other. That point can be argued but I personally see it as the future.

Originally Posted by Chicagoland60426

Actually according to 2000 census, Eastside is 57% Hispanic.
East Side, Chicago: Information from Answers.com

Suburbs like South Holland is still decent being a majority middle class black suburb now. Then you have Flossmoor that survived the white flight and is 31% black and upper middle class. But the ironic thing is most of the schools are over 50% black now, including H-F high school. So what is really driving whites away? It can't be social incomes, because Flossmoor is still upper middle class. It makes you wonder

[ajolotl]

Yes, that is a very novel and progressive idea that has been so successful in the past. I'm dying to here the details.

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

How nice.

I think I'd like to hear more about this. Exactly what kind of "open racial hostility" are you condoning? Pray tell.

[Chicagoland60426]

Originally Posted by ajolotl

I'm not from this country originally so I think I have somewhat of a fresh perspective. This is a very progressive and merit-based society (vs. Latin America e.g. where pedigree means everything, real corruption is the norm and nothing gets done). Minorities who are talented can do extremely well for themselves here and will be respected. However, many white people are *really* uncomfortable just rubbing shoulders with the random black person on the street, and of course even moreso actually living near them. The weird thing is that no one can say this out loud, so they talk all sorts of nonsense in public and then totally change their tune behind closed doors. It's actually kind of creepy at times.

Of course there are many exceptions, so please don't reply about how open minded you are. I'm speaking statistically. I'm also not saying that other more valid issues don't play in -- such as the revered crime rate, the fear of white flight and lower class minorities moving in, etc. I think in addition to those things many white people here just aren't used to and don't have a taste for living near blacks, regardless of their social class. I also think that this would change as integrated neighborhoods become more of the norm and people of similar social standing learn that they are not really different from each other. That point can be argued but I personally see it as the future.

Cosign

I'm African American in case you didn't know. Its like even if the black family is upper middle class in Chicagoland, some whites are still uncomfortable living by them. All this talk about its social income is the reason is not always the case. The excape routes in Chicagoland are getting smaller and smaller, so people are going to have to leave by each other someday or you live in the boondocks. Plus the economy is doing not so good, so many people are staying put for the moment.

[PokerPlayer1]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

How nice.

I think I'd like to hear more about this. Exactly what kind of "open racial hostility" are you condoning? Pray tell.

Oh noez! Now I'd better do that lame "he called me a racist" defensive dance where I offer up a series of standard, pre-packaged mea culpas in response!

1) I'M NOT RACIST! MY BEST FRIEND IS BLACK!
2) I VOTED FOR OBAMA!
3) I AM A CARD-CARRYING ACLU MEMBER!
4) MY NEIGHBORS ARE HISPANIC AND I LOVE THEM!
5) I PLAYED FOOTBALL IN HIGH SCHOOL AND STILL KEEP IN TOUCH WITH BLACK FRIENDS!
etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Yeah. When a neighborhood is being polluted by absolute trash and that trash happens to all share membership of a certain race, I'm all for the existing residents "defending" what they have by putting out a big "NOT WELCOME" sign; however they do it is up to them. The only reason Bridgeport wasn't absorbed by the 'black belt' is because there were just enough young, white and Hispanic roughnecks who were willing to fight like hell to keep it that way. I'm not opposed to it at all, and if that means I can't go sip tea with Jesse69 or Starbucks with a bunch of 'cosmopolitan' Uptown wrist flappers, that's fine by me.

Once you get outside of a certain economic spectrum, things change drastically and race becomes a non-issue (or at minimum, profoundly less relevant), but for blue collar, working class white and Hispanic people, it's a very big deal. Their black 'economic analogues' will positively destroy a neighborhood worse than flood, fire or locusts and no amount of hope, change, assorted idealism or high-minded philosophy does a damn thing to change reality as it exists on the ground; a fact that has demonstrated itself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

“(Blacks) are as a rule uncivilized - the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty and live almost like animals.”

Without using google, do you know who said that? It wasn't David Duke, or the KKK, or someone in a trailer park in West Virginia.
I'll give you a big hint....
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http://www.ichannel.ca/files/ichannel/u1/ghandi.jpg (broken link)... during his time in South Africa, when he first experienced life living amongst them.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

Yeah. When a neighborhood is being polluted by absolute trash and that trash happens to all share membership of a certain race, I'm all for the existing residents "defending" what they have by putting out a big "NOT WELCOME" sign; however they do it is up to them.

So lynching (ie murder) would be perfectly acceptable? How about fire-bombing? Cross-burning?

[ajolotl]

Moral issues aside, it is not a sustainable long-term strategy.

[PokerPlayer1]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

So lynching (ie murder) would be perfectly acceptable?

Not "perfectly acceptable", no.
Like I said. It's up to them. I don't own in an area that needs that sort of attitude, but I'm far more sympathetic with the residents who want to preserve their community than I am to the garbage that moves in on Section 8 vouchers and insists on destroying it.

[ajolotl]

There is a huge distinction between blind racial hostility and hostility of black section 8'ers intent on destroying a neighborhood. It appeared initially that you were supporting the former.

[skyeINIL]

Originally Posted by PokerPlayer1

Once you get outside of a certain economic spectrum, things change drastically and race becomes a non-issue (or at minimum, profoundly less relevant), but for blue collar, working class white and Hispanic people, it's a very big deal. Their black 'economic analogues' will positively destroy a neighborhood worse than flood, fire or locusts and no amount of hope, change, assorted idealism or high-minded philosophy does a damn thing to change reality as it exists on the ground; a fact that has demonstrated itself over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

There is a difference between blue collar, working class blacks and low-/no-income welfare blacks. The former is what is keeping several South side black neighborhoods from descending into third-world-like hellholes. The latter is what they, and their white and Latino "economic analogues", are (or should be) fighting against, not ALL blacks.