JD headin to Chicago (Peoria, Bradley: to buy, law school, law)
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Really, top 10% of the class at NIU is the same as top 10% at UoIL? I have heard a LOT of lawyers that didn't go to top ten schools say exactly this. What's up with that? Why bother to try and get into a top 30 versus a top 100 then? Is that futile?
I love my lawyer bretheren, but what is lawschool if that is true for 90% of the applicants? A giant incubator for rich people's kids to sit out in until they are ready for the top jobs? I don't really care if that's true I guess, just excited to have such an easy and straightforward plan for my future children's career advancement.
A}"MOST lawyers in Chicago practice in the Loop and an awful lot of them come from local schools, not in the highest tier: DePaul, Kent, Loyola, John Marshal, NIU, UofIll, NotreDame all FAR outnumber Northwetern & UofC. Of course many of the local schools ARE top 100, and the folks that come out of them and want to stay local have a BIG leg up. The "alumni factor" is huge."
I think that Chet is correct in stating that there's a "sliding scale". If you went to U of C, Northwestern, or another top 10 law school, then you're likely able to find a big firm job no matter where you end up in your class. If you went to U of I, Notre Dame, or a school in next 20 or so schools after the top 10, then the top firms are probably going to be looking at the top 1/3 of those classes. For everyone else, it's likely going to be a top 10% standard.
I went to DePaul for law school and was able to finish well within the top 10% of my class, but I'd be the first to admit that it takes some luck to get into that position (which is why you're almost always better off going to be best school possible instead of one where you believe that you'll finish higher in your class). The fact of the matter is that your first year grades are given wildly disproportionate weight in terms of hiring because law firms will interview students during the fall of their second year for summer associate positions (the equivalent of internships) for the following summer. The firms will then end up hiring those summer associates for full-time jobs after graduation (and very rarely hire people that weren't summer associates with them). Thus, the only grades that almost all of these firms ever see are people's first year grades
The issue with this is that in almost every law school, your first year classes are graded on a mandatory curve, which means that there are very few As given, a lot of Bs and Cs, and a handful of Ds (or Fs if people truly did horribly). Therefore, you can't "will" yourself into the top 10% of your law school class where if you study hard you can reasonably expect to get an A - your grade depends a whole lot on how your classmates perform by comparison. Throw in the fact that the grading can be fairly subjective depending upon the professor (it's not as if though these are math or accounting exams where there are clear correct answers) along with the mentality of students where EVERYONE believes that he or she is going to finish in the top 10% means that no one can reasonably bank on actually finishing in the top 10%.
Large firms are definitely not the be-all end-all. In fact, I left a large firm job in order to take an in-house position for less pay because of quality of life issues. However, a lot of in-house and high-level government positions (i.e. U.S. Attorney's Office) will insist on large firm experience. Now, if one wants to find personal injury or insurance work, there are a lot of firms that focus on those areas in Chicago, although the starting pay for new attorneys at those places (which shouldn't be the deciding factor, but does matter in reality if you're like me with a lot of student loans) is much lower (in fact, they are often lower paying than your average accounting or finance job that only requires a bachelor's degree).
My advice (and I'm not a lawyer, but know lots of them) is to find a few really good recruiters. There are many firms. I'm familiar with Mayor, Lindsey & Africa, but you will want to seek out several firms.
Good legal recruiters rarely work with new grads. If law firms want new grads, they know exactly where to go find them and they don't need to pay recruiters' fees to get them. Law firms mostly use recruiters when they're looking for a specific type of practitioner and they can't find one themselves or don't have time to look for one. You'd have to have a really, really compelling resume to get a reputable recruiter to deal with you as a new grad, and if that were the case, you most likely wouldn't need a recruiter anyway.
I'd even weight it more in honesty. 11-15 ranked schools are barely different than 1-10 in my experience. Why do I say that? Top 11-15 ranked schools have average undergrad GPAs of around 3.8, some as high as 3.9. Imagine a class full of valedictorian types competing to be in the top 3rd or top 10%. It's simply not how it works, instead it's more like top half of the class going to top law firms for 11-15, trust me I have seen it. For 15-25 I think it's more like top 1/3rd. 26-30 top 25%. I think if you go to a 60-ish ranked school and get in the top 20% of your class you will land in a big law firm.
Finally, if you are attractive, at least more so than your classmates, you can typically add a solid 5% to your class ranking as above and still slide through. Probably even more because your GPA in law school will also reflect how good you look. It's life.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank
I think that Chet is correct in stating that there's a "sliding scale". If you went to U of C, Northwestern, or another top 10 law school, then you're likely able to find a big firm job no matter where you end up in your class. If you went to U of I, Notre Dame, or a school in next 20 or so schools after the top 10, then the top firms are probably going to be looking at the top 1/3 of those classes. For everyone else, it's likely going to be a top 10% standard.
I went to DePaul for law school and was able to finish well within the top 10% of my class, but I'd be the first to admit that it takes some luck to get into that position (which is why you're almost always better off going to be best school possible instead of one where you believe that you'll finish higher in your class). The fact of the matter is that your first year grades are given wildly disproportionate weight in terms of hiring because law firms will interview students during the fall of their second year for summer associate positions (the equivalent of internships) for the following summer. The firms will then end up hiring those summer associates for full-time jobs after graduation (and very rarely hire people that weren't summer associates with them). Thus, the only grades that almost all of these firms ever see are people's first year grades
The issue with this is that in almost every law school, your first year classes are graded on a mandatory curve, which means that there are very few As given, a lot of Bs and Cs, and a handful of Ds (or Fs if people truly did horribly). Therefore, you can't "will" yourself into the top 10% of your law school class where if you study hard you can reasonably expect to get an A - your grade depends a whole lot on how your classmates perform by comparison. Throw in the fact that the grading can be fairly subjective depending upon the professor (it's not as if though these are math or accounting exams where there are clear correct answers) along with the mentality of students where EVERYONE believes that he or she is going to finish in the top 10% means that no one can reasonably bank on actually finishing in the top 10%.
Large firms are definitely not the be-all end-all. In fact, I left a large firm job in order to take an in-house position for less pay because of quality of life issues. However, a lot of in-house and high-level government positions (i.e. U.S. Attorney's Office) will insist on large firm experience. Now, if one wants to find personal injury or insurance work, there are a lot of firms that focus on those areas in Chicago, although the starting pay for new attorneys at those places (which shouldn't be the deciding factor, but does matter in reality if you're like me with a lot of student loans) is much lower (in fact, they are often lower paying than your average accounting or finance job that only requires a bachelor's degree).
Finally, if you are attractive, at least more so than your classmates, you can typically add a solid 5% to your class ranking as above and still slide through. Probably even more because your GPA in law school will also reflect how good you look. It's life.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
I don't know how it works everywhere else, but at my school, exams are graded anonymously.
Drover, usually I agree with you on this we'll have to diverge. Attractiveness plays a role in your ability to succeed once in grad school, man or female.
Drover, usually I agree with you on this we'll have to diverge. Attractiveness plays a role in your ability to succeed once in grad school, man or female.
Uh, well, I don't know what kind of grad school you attended. But where law school is concerned, I'm in the trenches right now, and I just don't see it happening that way.
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