Pros and Cons of a historic home? (Chicago: house, contractors)

[snoylekim]

Originally Posted by Avengerfire

Please buy one in Bronzeville and restore it.

See that the thread is a little mature, but Bronzeville /N Kenwood/Oakwood restorations can be a challenge..Lots of those places were carved up into 'rooming houses', with some/all of the original work destroyed or ripped out, so basically one is working with an exoskeleton ..

[linicx]

I rehabed a 108-year old custom built Craftsman and I've flipped a few houses. Unless it is the oldest or worst house in a good neighborhood the chances of getting your money back in a far distant future sale is questionable. If you can do most of the deconstruction and rebuilding, you are well ahead of the expense game. Do go into the attic and look at the underside of the roof. Mine was shingled over the original wood shakes. The cheapest estimate I had to replace the roof was $30K six years ago. The cost to restore or replace windows pale in comparison to the cost of roofing, plumbing and electrical. The old knob and tube wiring must be replaced. While you are in the attic look for water stains from leaks, especially around chimnies, and bat droppings. It is not that unusual due to the way the houses were constructed 100 years ago. The first bat I saw flying around my living room scared the bejeezus out of me. Do look in the basement. YOu do not want a house with basement half-finished on one side and open dirt/rocks on the other as it is a health hazard. The coal room will be a real, genuine dandy to clean. You will need a very good mask to clean it and a lot of harsh chemicals. I took one look at mine and sealed the door completely from the outside. The old fireplaces must be inspected and cleaned before they can be used. At one time mine had a gas logs. The gas line had a beautiful brass handle. I would not be surprised if your house still has the hanging gas lights, tiny closets and small bathrooms. and original wood counters in the kitchen. If you run your hand underneath the edge of the kitchen counter, don't be surprised to find an hidden bread board. I had to use an 8" Buck knife to dislodge mine so I could remove it and restore it.

Do not be surprised if your old house is solid as a brick. Construction was different then. The outside walls in my old house were 12' thick. Every inch of the house, including the garage was red oak. . .

My neighbor bought an old Victoria with the magnificent wall pocket lights. He did not replace the old Knob and Tube wiring throughout the house but he insulation blown in the side walls and replaced some bad windows and doors and started to add a bedroom in attic. A week later he turned the wall pocket lights on in living room and took the family shopping and out to dinner. He came home to a burned out house. He lost everything because he did not understand how Knob and Tube works.

You have a ton of hard physical labor ahead of you. The reward is a few years from now you will have a beautifully restored historic home - and you won't want to do another.

My house was not in a historical neighborhood; my house had been modified, therefore it did not qualify for historical registry or federal grants. The rules are very strict.

[WhaThe]

Originally Posted by linicx

Do not be surprised if your old house is solid as a brick. Construction was different then. The outside walls in my old house were 12' thick.

Mines an old cottage and it looks like the basement is stone (w/concrete floors) with brick 2 deep on the sides at ground level and 3 deep at the front of the house. I like all of the wood also, hate that there is paint all over it. I wonder where all the doors disappeared to though.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by WhaThe

Mines an old cottage and it looks like the basement is stone (w/concrete floors) with brick 2 deep on the sides at ground level and 3 deep at the front of the house. I like all of the wood also, hate that there is paint all over it. I wonder where all the doors disappeared to though.

In our basement, we tore out the floor tiles and polished the original concrete floor, broke out the plaster ceiling and cleaned and painted the wood beams, and removed the wood paneling and exposed the brick walls. We added modern furniture (IKEA, West Elm, etc.) and ended up with a cool loft looking thing that you never would have dreamed could have been hiding underneath a humble bungalow basement (neither did my wife after seeing the bills for all the change orders!).

The point is with an old house you don't necessarily have to do the "Arts and Crafts" or "Mission" themes that people seem wedded to. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there is more flexibility than that. Adaptive reuse is the key.

[WhaThe]

And it's all way more fun than one of the cookie cutter condos out there. Theres something I can't really put my finger on but these old homes are just good for my soul. I get a sense of fulfillment I doubt I'd get with newer stock.

[coldwine]

Originally Posted by linicx

The coal room will be a real, genuine dandy to clean. You will need a very good mask to clean it and a lot of harsh chemicals. I took one look at mine and sealed the door completely from the outside.

My contractors warned me. They said: You can't even use oven cleaner to get the stains out, and the dust is actually poisonous.

I said: I was so clean I actually cleaned away roaches. I can do it!

When I pried open the door, I took one look and at it permanently sealed shut.

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by WhaThe

I'll revive this thread instead of starting another.

I bought an old brick home in Chicago. I'm curious about the advantages and disadvantages of brick vs wood frame, mostly with heating and cooling.

I've heard it both ways. Some tell me brick is really bad in the winter and sucks the heat out and others tell me it insulates well all seasons.

I'd like to hear what some of the more knowledgeable folks around here think.

Like everything else in the world, it depends, but the bottom line with historic masonry structures is that it is almost impossible to make them thermally efficient by modern standards without giving up substantial interior space.

This is because unlike modern masonry structures, there is no cavity (air space) providing a thermal break between wythes. A cavity allows the placement of insulation and vaper retarders, while simultaneously allowing the evaporation of water vapor and condensation. You are basically demoting the exterior wythe or face brick to acting strictly as a barrier to wind, snow, rain, blowing debris, etc. The old buildings are bonded solid masonry, which means the entire wall is acting as a a thermal conductor. In order to get a decent R-value on the wall, you must place the insulation and vapor retarder on the interior of the wall, so you end up losing floor space and having to extensively re detail the window and door openings. Then there's the oak trim that has t be re detailed, etc. etc., which is why few people bother to attempt it.

A frame building, on the other hand, has regularly-spaced wood studs which allow for the placement of vapor retarders and insulation without reconfiguring the floors. In the old days, frame houses were not thermally efficient because they had no insulation and the old clapboard siding allowed wind. Modern construction has done away with these disadvantages.

Having rehabbed both types, wood frames are without question easier and less expensive. Siding, studs, and insulation are cheaper than masonry restoration any day of the week, and you have the possibility of reconfiguring windows if, for whatever reason, you need to enlarge or shift them. The other advantage of frames is that even the exterior walls can be jacked and lifted into place if you are not satisfied with their levelness. Good luck doing that with a masonry building.

Masonry buildings are pretty much are-what-they-are kinds of things, and restoring one a labor of love, because all of the late 1800's/early 1900's compromses made on the interior spaces that dictate the location of exterior windows and doors are literally set in stone. In that sense, they are very cool - to those of us who appreciate the novelty. But keep in mind that to many, including the vast majority of post-genX Yuppies, quaint, late 1800's living spaces are not cool. They are outdated, "ghetto", and will not, in general, yield as high rents as rehabbed frames with spaces configured to modern sensibilities and lifestyles.

Mechanically, the issues are virtually identical for both, as are basement water and foundation, so no advantage either way there.

Good luck on your project. I'd like to say I envy you, but I've done enough of them to know better than to envy another man's version of purgatory.

When it gets really tough, just remember: rehabbing is excruciatingly painful, but once the pain is over, the wound heals quickly, and it makes you stronger.

[Attrill]

Every house is different, but you may actually gain space by redoing the walls. It makes any electrical and plumbing work go much faster as well.

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

Like everything else in the world, it depends, but the bottom line with historic masonry structures is that it is almost impossible to make them thermally efficient by modern standards without giving up substantial interior space....

In order to get a decent R-value on the wall, you must place the insulation and vapor retarder on the interior of the wall, so you end up losing floor space and having to extensively re detail the window and door openings. Then there's the oak trim that has t be re detailed, etc. etc., which is why few people bother to attempt it.

We're in the process of rehabbing a 1879 brick workers cottage and did exactly that to our walls - adding not only vapor barrier and insulation, but also 1/2" channels between the studs and drywall for sound insulation. In the end we actually gained about 2" of space by taking out the old walls and replacing them. There were 8 layers of different walls built on top of each other:







Good luck with your rehab!

[NearWestSider]

Originally Posted by Attrill

Every house is different, but you may actually gain space by redoing the walls. It makes any electrical and plumbing work go much faster as well.

We're in the process of rehabbing a 1879 brick workers cottage and did exactly that to our walls - adding not only vapor barrier and insulation, but also 1/2" channels between the studs and drywall for sound insulation. In the end we actually gained about 2" of space by taking out the old walls and replacing them. There were 8 layers of different walls built on top of each other:

Good luck with your rehab!

MY GOD. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths people will go to to avoid demolition. Obviously, demo makes a huge mess, and none of that "work" was done with a permit.....but didn't the previous owner ever hear of paying off the garbage man? Jesus Christ.

I'm guessing the previous owner is a Polish guy named Stash Dupajash. Am I right?

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by NearWestSider

MY GOD.
I'm guessing the previous owner is a Polish guy named Stash Dupajash. Am I right?

Oh yeah - The previous owner was a Polish guy, who apparently turned the place into some sort of model train palace. Ironically, the kick-ass HVAC guy, plumber, electrician, and carpenter I hired were all Polish too. But they definitely knew what they were doing.

We did all demo work ourselves and are doing all interior finish work ourselves as well (drywall, trim, painting, etc.). We hired licensed electricians, HVAC, and plumbers for everything else.

One of the best decisions we made was to hire an architect this time. I grew up living in houses my parents rehabbed and have been continually working on houses for almost 25 years, but had never hired an architect. It really sped up the process and helped to have someone with a different (and professional) perspective on our project. Sped up the permitting as well.

I'm a huge fan of demo and gut rehabbing. Nice old trim work can be taken down and put back up, and it is a lot easier to strip it if you take it down. All it takes is one day of dicking around with trying to get new plumb walls to line up with completely out of wack old walls to realize it easier to just rebuild it all.