Why don't poor neighborhoods have Grocery Stores? (Chicago, Oak Park: low income, loans)

[icebergsyndrome]

Wow...I was fully expecting race-baiting and name-calling by this point in the thread. You have surprised me, keep it up!

Would post my thoughts but I'm working.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

One of the worst aspects of our nation's farm/food policy is the paradoxical situation we're in where the healthiest food is more expensive than the processed junk food. This isn't just a natural result of the laws of economics, but largely due to government policy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/ma...agewanted=1&hp

I remember reading that article a while back, very interesting. Speaking of, his book, In Defense of Food, has been high on my list for a while. I'm planning on buying that as soon as I get through a few current books I'm reading (I'm on a bookreading kick after going almost a year without reading anything).

Have you read it?

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by icebergsyndrome

Wow...I was fully expecting race-baiting and name-calling by this point in the thread. You have surprised me, keep it up!

Sorry to disappoint. Will try harder to include racially inflammatory language and ad hominem attacks...Uh, you suck and your momma wears combat boots to the grocery store in a poor, high-crime minority neighborhood?

Originally Posted by jdiddy

I remember reading that article a while back, very interesting. Speaking of, his book, In Defense of Food, has been high on my list for a while. I'm planning on buying that as soon as I get through a few current books I'm reading (I'm on a bookreading kick after going almost a year without reading anything).

Have you read it?

Heard the guy interviewed on NPR, basically summarizing his NYT article. Should probably read the book, but after all these years on city-data, I have a difficult time reading anything longer than a paragraph.

[jdiddy]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

Heard the guy interviewed on NPR, basically summarizing his NYT article. Should probably read the book, but after all these years on city-data, I have a difficult time reading anything longer than a paragraph.

Ha...understood.

[lenniel]

It really simple supply and demand economics.
And please don't blame obesity on anything or anyone but the individual. No one points a gun to your head and makes you walk into McDonalds. Otherwise, there should be another person pointing a gun at your head and making you get out of bed a little earlier so you can exercise.

There's something called personal responsibility that many people in the country don't want to recognize. It's one of the, if not the primary reason that poor folks stay poor and that many families are stuck in a revolving door cycle of unemployment, no education, multiple children from different fathers, gang/drug activity and incarceration.

[eevee]

Originally Posted by lenniel

It really simple supply and demand economics.
And please don't blame obesity on anything or anyone but the individual. No one points a gun to your head and makes you walk into McDonalds. Otherwise, there should be another person pointing a gun at your head and making you get out of bed a little earlier so you can exercise.

There's something called personal responsibility that many people in the country don't want to recognize. It's one of the, if not the primary reason that poor folks stay poor and that many families are stuck in a revolving door cycle of unemployment, no education, multiple children from different fathers, gang/drug activity and incarceration.

problem is people like you don't realize all the external factors that not only help to promote obesity, but can make hard to lose weight.

I've lived in quite a few places that can be considered "food deserts" along w/ a few areas where the only "oasis" was a corner grocery store that may sell some cold cuts, bananas, and apples. yes, when you have the option of either taking a long bus ride (or a trip that requires a transfer or two) to the nearest store or walking down the block to the hot dog joint/BK/Mickey D's, which option do you think people are going to choose? especially people who have kids and can't afford to be out of the home w/ hours at a time to go shopping? and some of the stores catering to poor neighborhoods aren't that great. the Fairplay supermarket near Western and Cermak has, IMO, the worst produce selection on earth! I've seen bagged salads w/ liquid brown lettuce inside, woefully overripe fruits, and just a poor selection overall. it's hard as hell to find products w/o HFCS or products made w/ whole grains (for example, they don't sell brown rice in bulk, limited WW carb options). forget about all natural and organic items or even foods lower in fat (ie, I haven't been able to find certain lean cuts of meat, and one time I went there, they seem to only carry chicken drumsticks, thighs and ground beef). for produce, i either go to Cermak or take a trip up to Whole Foods, though trips to WF aren't frequent since they can be expensive (though not always; I got some organic apples on sale at $1.99/lb)

and then you have issues w/ lack of green space for kids to run around, safety issues that make kids less likely to run around even if there are green spaces, fewer gym options in poor areas, expensive exercise equipment that many can't afford, the lack of knowledge that less expensive options exist, and the poor transit options in many of these areas that forces people to drive more

it's true, neighborhoods mainly populated by Latinos tend to have more ethnic grocery stores where one may be able to buy cheap produce and meats (supermarket CEOs that think they won't make money on these items if they open if a poor neighborhood should take a trip to a Cermak produce or similar store that always seems to be crowded). most mom 'n' pop shops seemed to be owned and operated by Latinos, which brings up a whole 'nother issue about blacks not owning and operating as many small businesses as other races. blacks could SERIOUSLY fix the food desert issue if they got together and tried to open up a small store or even a co-op in these under-served areas (of course, many won't for a variety of reasons)

I agree w/ Costa Rica Chica that just tossing in a Jewels is not enough if people don't pick up good eating habits and learn to cook for themselves. for people who don't have the time or knowledge to cook at home, processed foods can be seen as a much cheaper and easier option, and fast food cheaper and easier still.

it really isn't a questions that can be answered easily. blaming obesity solely on the individuals is tough when many of these people have few options to eat healthy and remain healthy.

a while ago, I read an article about a town or city (I think it was in CA) that passed a law stating no more fast food restaurants could be built in a certain area until more stores and restaurants w/ healthier food options came along. yeah, it sounds like a busy body gov't, but I wonder if this may not be a way to combat the food desert issue, by setting up some ratio of "bad food" places to "good food" places.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by lenniel

It really simple supply and demand economics.
And please don't blame obesity on anything or anyone but the individual. No one points a gun to your head and makes you walk into McDonalds. Otherwise, there should be another person pointing a gun at your head and making you get out of bed a little earlier so you can exercise.

There's something called personal responsibility that many people in the country don't want to recognize. It's one of the, if not the primary reason that poor folks stay poor and that many families are stuck in a revolving door cycle of unemployment, no education, multiple children from different fathers, gang/drug activity and incarceration.

So if it's simple free-market economics causing this problem, then doesn't that prove the free market doesn't work?

Who taught you about nutrition? Who taught you how to cook? I'll bet money it was your parents. Now, how do you think you would have learned that if your parents were absent, uneducated, working 2+ jobs, never home, crack head etc. How???

Personal responsibility only works if the playing field starts out even. In this country, it starts off horribly, horribly uneven.

[Lookout Kid]

I'd say the problem is with business of any kind in these neighborhoods, though food stores are certainly more critical. There are large swaths of the city where the only thriving businesses you will see (in addition to said fast food stores) are currency exchanges, liquor stores, and nail shops.

There must be more entrepreneurial spirit in the Mexican neighborhoods, because they are almost always well supplied by independent grocers or bodegas.

[Humboldt1]

I shop at the Austin Wal-Mart a couple of times per month. Two of my neighbors work at this Wal-Mart. As such I know alot about how the place works.

Employee theft is huge there. The Wal-Mart does not make money due to high employee theft and low sales, driven by low average sales. They deliberately have limited space for food (5-6 aisles). Also, with low sales per person, people are buying $10-15 of food and shampoo, etc., vs. $1000 tvs or appliances. They have yet to pay out bonuses to employees because internal theft is so high. I suspect employee theft is much higher at this Wal-Mart than your typical Wal-Mart given the level of the employees (truly the worst staffed Wal-Mart I have ever seen, even worse than the one in Bedford Park, which is pretty bad). I mean, seriously, the security guards at this Wal-Mart have guns (as do the off-duty police officers who work security at Old Navy just down the street).

I wish they would have built a Super Wal-Mart, like those seen in outlying suburbs with a full grocery store (my hometown in southeast Indiana with 11,000 people has one and it is great) but I don't think people who essentially are buying convenience store food (lots of prepackaged foods) and basic essentials are going to be able to support such a store.

Mexican hoods, including Humboldt Park and Logan Square and Hermosa, have a number of groceries, some better than others. Cermak and Tony's seem to do a decent job, others not so much.

Black hoods, like southern Humboldt Park (northern part is almost entirely Hispanic) and Garfield Park and Austin, tend to have local corner stores and Aldis. I don't know of any regional black grocery chains, like you see with Hispanic groceries (owned by Greeks, Italians and Hispanics).

[lenniel]

Originally Posted by aragx6

So if it's simple free-market economics causing this problem, then doesn't that prove the free market doesn't work?

Who taught you about nutrition? Who taught you how to cook? I'll bet money it was your parents. Now, how do you think you would have learned that if your parents were absent, uneducated, working 2+ jobs, never home, crack head etc. How???

Personal responsibility only works if the playing field starts out even. In this country, it starts off horribly, horribly uneven.

I'm guessing your first point is that there is a demand for better supermarkets in the poor areas? Well, the other side of that is the supply of money to support that demand. I sincerely hope you're not questioning the free market. Otherwise, you might at well move to a communist country.
As for nutrition, cooking, etc and who taught me? Yes, 2 parent, married, educated, employed. This is the chicken and the egg argument and my revolving door comment. Everything you refer back to has to do with people taking responsibility for their actions and not relying on the government to take care of you.
I'll just use the black community as an example, but there seems to be a serious cultural problem of children born out of wedlock to young mothers. Usually, these woman have multiple kids from different men. They drop out of school, get on welfare and their kids grow up to do the same thing their mom did (get prego, drop out, no job, repeat). A sad majority of these kids end up with disciplinary problems, sell drugs, join gangs, go to jail, etc.
No, if you want to blame that on a lack of educational, I'll call your bluff.